I had a dialogue with some brothers about the issue of black magic affecting the Prophet (ﷺ). The team from Asharis Assemble took the time to produce it as an article with commentary. Before this Shaykh Atabek challenged Shaykh Samr an Nass to a debate about this issue. He accepted the debate, but later reneged on his confirmation. In this blog post, the first section is from the prologue of the book, the second section is from the section ‘practical applications of hadith methodology, the final section is the post from Asharis Assemble, which thankfully the admin of the site have given me permission to post.
For instance, consider the hadith about black magic affecting the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ), reportedly narrated by Aisha (ra) in ‘Sahih al-Bukhari’, a book which is considered by many Muslims in current times as being second only to the Quran itself. After being affected by said black magic, “The Prophet (ﷺ) continued for such-and-such time imagining that he had slept [had sexual relations] with his wives, when in fact he had not….”[i] In a second narration concerning the same event, also found in Sahih al-Bukhari, it is stated that “Once the Prophet (ﷺ) was bewitched, so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing when in fact, he had not done it.” These hadith highlight quite a few important issues. Firstly, the mind of the Prophet (ﷺ) supposedly being affected to such an extent that he was imagining or hallucinating events occurring and not aware of what was happening around him. This could bring the entire religion of Islam into question. For instance, were parts of the Quran revealed during this time? Could parts of the Quran have been missed by the Prophet (ﷺ) due to him allegedly losing control of his mind? Are there then errors in the Quran as the Prophet (ﷺ) did not have control? The main role of any Prophet is to convey the message of God, and if there is a possibility of distortion in the message at the very point at which it is being revealed, it seemingly renders the entire process worthless. A message that can, even in theory, be distorted or contain significant errors cannot be trusted and therefore it can be argued that the entire religion cannot be trusted.
Ibn Hajar Asqalani (d. 1449/852 AH) is a famous pioneer of the Shafi’i Muŝŧalaĥ of hadith. He is also one of the main reasons for ‘Sahih al-Bukhari’ currently holding the position of the second most valued book in Islam. His commentary on Bukhari’s collection is considered the most authoritative amongst all of the scholars of hadith. But in this commentary he not only accepts this hadith, he compounds the problem by stating that the hadith was ‘only rejected by heretics’. [ii] Thus according to Ibn Hajar at least, rejecting this hadith results in a person leaving the parameters of Sunni Islam.
Qadi Iyaad (d. 1149/543 AH), a Maliki scholar, who is renowned for writing one of the best biographies of the Prophet (ﷺ), also tried to address this issue and explains that he believes that the magic did not affect the mind of the Prophet (ﷺ) but rather his body, which resulted in the Prophet (ﷺ) suffering from sexual impotence.[iii] This statement of Qadi Iyaad also highlights serious issues. From the outset, to speak about the Prophet (ﷺ) in this manner is highly unbecoming. Also, from whom was this information taken? Which of the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ) informed the people of the physical problems facing her husband? Is this not an insult to the wives of the Prophet (ﷺ)? In fact, none of them did and this whole story is only a conjecture of the scholars!
The Hanafis on the other hand do not try to give their ‘own’ interpretation to this hadith and instead reject it outright based on their classical principles. The first question that arises is what are the effects of black magic? Imam Baidawi, a Hanafi scholar from the thirteenth century, explains in his Tafsīr (interpretation of the Quran) that someone affected by such magic loses his ”Aql” (brain and mind).[iv] This would bring the message of Islam into disrepute as the mind of the Prophet (ﷺ) has been compromised.
But the primary problem with this hadith is that it directly contradicts the text of the Quran: “We are most knowing of how they listen to it, when they listen to you, and when they are in private conversation, the wrongdoers say, “You follow none but a man affected by magic.”[v] According to God, the people who said the Prophet (ﷺ) was a man affected by magic were wrongdoers or oppressors (‘žālimīn’). Imam Abu Mansur al-Māturidī (d. 944/333 AH), a renowned scholar from the fourth Islamic century and the founder of Māturidī ʿAqīda (theological School), denied the notion that the Prophet (ﷺ) was affected by black magic at all and rejected this hadith. He also said the reason for the revelation (Asbāb al-Nuzūl) of ‘Surah Al-Falaq’ (The Daybreak) and ‘Surah Al-Naas’ (Mankind), which are two portions of the Quran which some claim refer to the Prophet (ﷺ) being affected by magical forces, was not as a result of magic at all but instead he emphasised that the two chapters were revealed whilst the Prophet (ﷺ) was merely on a journey.[vi] Imam Abu Bakr al-Jassas al-Razi al-Hanafi was a prominent Hanafi jurist from the fourth century, one of the most respected scholars in the field of Uŝūl (epistemic principles), and the grand-teacher of Abul Hasan al Quduri, who wrote the most famous and most commonly used primer in Hanafi jurisprudence, ‘Mukhtasar al-Quduri’. He not only rejected this hadith but stated “the ignorant of the Hashawis (anthropomorphists, those who believe that God is a form or body bound by space) narrated this hadith without knowing it was fabricated.”[vii] These strong statements of the Hanafi scholars demonstrate the philosophy of the school concerning certain types of hadith. As we can see, the issues at stake are of crucial importance for both Islamic theology and comparative religious studies.
Practical Applications of Hadith Methodology
The issue of black magic was discussed in the prologue of this book. In that section the analysis was based on the statements of the classical Hanafi scholars such as Imam Abu Mansoor al-Māturidī and Abu Bakr Ahmad bin Ali Al-Razi Al-Jassas and the responsa by some of the later Shafi/Maliki scholars such as Shaykh Ibn Hajar and Qadi Iyaad. In this section the narration will now be scrutinised based on the Hanafi principles of testing hadith.
Aisha narrated: “Once the Prophet was bewitched so that he began to imagine that he had done a thing when in fact, he had not done it.”[viii]
Aisha narrated: Magic was worked on Allah’s Apostle so that he used to think that he had had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not. Then one day he said, “O Aisha, do you know that Allah has instructed me concerning the matter I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat near my head and the other sat near my feet. The one near my head asked the other: ‘What is wrong with this man?’ The latter replied, ‘He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who has worked magic on him?’ The other replied, ‘Labid bin Al-Asam, a man from Bani Zuraiq who was an ally of the Jews and was a hypocrite.’ The first one asked, ‘What material did he use?’ The other replied, ‘A comb and the hair stuck to it.[ix]
Firstly, the narration is dealing with the verbal statement as opposed to the action of the Prophet (ﷺ). This hadith is neither mutawātir nor mashhūr as is was not mass narrated in the generation of the Ŝaĥabah to reach the level of mutawātir nor was it mass narrated during the second or third generation to reach the level of mashhūr. Thus, for now there is a possibility it could be right and an equal possibility that it could be wrong. The narrator of this hadith is Hishām ibn ʿUrwah, the grandson of Asma (ra) who is the elder sister of Aisha (ra). He is a therefore a known narrator as he was recognised amongst the Tābiʿīn and so his memory and knowledge have been tested. He is also a teacher of Imam Malik. Hishām ibn ʿUrwah’s righteousness (ʿadālah) is agreed upon by the earlier generations. There are no issues concerning his maturity, his ideology nor his memory. There is a report from Yaqub ibn Shaibah, expressed in the book ‘Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb’, one of the most well-known books on the lives and reliability of the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (ﷺ) which states “narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq”.[x]
There are however numerous problems with this statement. Firstly, it conflicts with other biographical documents which do not question his memory and the second issue is that the criticism is not explained. Therefore this criticism is rejected.
The other narrator is Sulayman bin Mihran al-A’mash, a Tābiʿī who was mature, had strong memory and was free from innovation. There was some criticism in terms of righteousness with some stating he did ‘tadlīs’, which is to conceal certain facts or it could also mean that the narrator concealed the truth. The Muĥadīthīn narrated from him and this included Imam Bukhari and thus his righteousness was no longer questioned and he was accepted as an authentic narrator. The hadith has no explicit disconnection (mursal) and therefore we will explore any implicit disconnection, which in this case will again be whether the narration opposes a stronger proof of the religion.
The first proof the narration is compared to is the Quran. In the Quran we have a couple of direct verses that speak about the Prophet (ﷺ) and magic. The first verse states; “We are most knowing of how they listen to it, when they listen to you and when they are in private conversation, when the wrong-doers (‘Dhalimoon‘) say: “You follow none but a man affected by magic.”[xi] And in the second verse; “Or [why] has not a treasure been granted to him, or why does he not have a garden from which he eats?” And the wrong-doers (‘Dhalimoon‘) say: “You follow none but a man affected by magic.”[xii]
The verses in the Quran are quite clear that the Dhalimoon (wrong-doers) are the ones who shall claim that the Prophet (ﷺ) is affected by magic. Yet, due to this hadith being in Bukhari, the majority of Muslims now believe that the Prophet (ﷺ) was affected by magic. The narration is directly conflicting with the Quran. It is also affecting the authenticity of the Quran because when God is saying only the Dhalimoon will say that his Messenger (ﷺ) will be affected by magic, we are now saying actually God was wrong as the Prophet was affected by magic and during this period those stating it would not be wrong-doers but were in reality making factual statements. Therefore the statement of God was not accurate or was a lie as the disbelievers were not wrong-doers when stating this ‘fact’ according to this narration.
These alone are strong enough to reject this narration. But let’s explore a few more verses; “So when you want to recite the Qur’an, seek refuge with Allah (swt) from Satan, the outcast [the cursed one]. Indeed! He has no power over those who believe and put their trust only in their Lord. His power is only over those who obey and follow him [Satan], and those who join partners with Him [God].”[xiii] So here Allah (swt) is telling us in the Quran that Satan only has power over those who do not put their complete trust in God. Involvement with black magic entails the person dealing with Satanic and evil forces.[xiv] Thus, the only way the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) could have been affected by magic was if he did not trust in God and instead followed Satan. This is a ludicrous proposition and not only conflicts with the Quran but also conflicts with another strong proof, namely theology (ʿAqīda). If the Prophet (ﷺ) can be controlled by the dark arts, in essence Satan, this affects the authenticity of the message. He is above being controlled, not because he is a superhuman, but rather because God has promised that the Quran will be protected from errors, mistakes, insertions and forgeries.
Another proof it conflicts with is once again the principle of ʿUmūm Al-Balwā; something concerning everybody but we only have a few narrators, which is also connected to the fact that this hadith was not mass narrated. We know from the biography of the Prophet (ﷺ) that when he was ill during the latter part of his life, we have a huge number of narrators, yet this time only a few. Furthermore, we also know that the companions of the Prophet (ﷺ) were thoroughly concerned about the whereabouts of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) at all times due to the love and affection they had for him. For the Prophet (ﷺ) to be missing for such a long time and yet most Ŝaĥabah did not know implies that they were heedless when it came to the Messenger, which for Hanafis is a problematic insinuation. Yet, he was affected by magic, which according to some statements was for a duration of a month or even forty days. Logically it is possible him being absent or unattended but practically how likely is this, based on what has been presented?
We touched earlier on the narration conflicting with theology. It states “He began to imagine that he had done a thing which in fact, he had not done it.” And “he used to think that he had had sexual relations with his wives while he actually had not.” In both of these narrations it explicitly states that God’s Messenger (ﷺ) lost his mind, in that in the first hadith he imagined things that in fact did not happen and in the second he imagined whole acts occurring when they did not. This explicitly affects the authenticity of the message and the Quran. As we mentioned in the prologue, what if some of Quran was revealed at that time and so we have some of it missing, or what if the Prophet (ﷺ) imagined a revelation occurring when it did not and thus there is extra content in the Quran which is not from Allah (swt). It also implies that the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) is weaker than the average Muslim, as not everyone who is affected by magic would have such extreme reactions as mentioned in the hadith. The explanation of Qadi Iyaad and the scholars who followed his position was to try and combat these problems and so he said the effect was not on the mind of the Prophet (ﷺ) but instead his body, which he elucidated was sexual impotence. There are two issues with this explanation; the first is that nowhere in these narrations does it state the affect was on the body, rather it clearly explains the affect was on the mind. Therefore in essence, these scholars are rejecting the majority of the narration and only accepting the small bit which says the Prophet (ﷺ) was affected by magic. The second issue is the defamation of the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) that occurs due to the acceptance of this narration. With the outrage displayed by the majority of Muslims at the depiction of the Prophet (ﷺ) as a caricature by the occidental media, this alludes to double standards; many are however willing to accept the ‘impotence’ of the Prophet (ﷺ), which he never attributed to himself, and this is possibly more derogatory than some of what the Islamophobes have said about him.
The person alleged to have enacted the black magic on the Prophet (ﷺ) was Labid bin Al-Asam. No one knows for sure who he is though there are various accounts which try to explain his identity. Some say he was the servant of the Prophet (ﷺ) or that he was the servant of a Ŝaĥabī or that he was an unknown Rabbi. There is also a disagreement regarding his age. Most chronicles express that he was a young boy whereas a few statements describe him as a mature adult. Again, such a monumental occurrence in the life of the Prophet (ﷺ) and yet we do not know who was the cause of the problem.[xv]
In summary, the narration is connected explicitly, the narrators were accepted as righteous, especially in the period after their inclusion by Imam Bukhari. The criticism of them is rejected as it is not explained. When examining the text (matn) of the narration however, it raises many red flags. We do not know for sure who Labid bin Al-Asam is. The hadith completely conflicts with the Quran and many Muslims could fall under the definition of dhalimoon (wrongdoers) which are those who stated that the Prophet (ﷺ) was affected by magic. The hadith was narrated by a few and yet all Ŝaĥabah were normally concerned about the whereabouts and well-being of the Prophet (ﷺ). The tradition conflicts with theology as it states that the Prophet Muhammad (ﷺ) lost his mind and therefore affects the authenticity of the message. The explanation of physical impotence is in essence a rejection of the narration as the hadith clearly states that this did not happen. There is a disagreement about the reason for the revelation of the last two chapters of the Quran (said to pertain to this black magic incident), with Shaykh Abu Mansoor denying that it was due to the Prophet (ﷺ) being affected by magic but rather saying that the revelation instead occurred during a journey.
Based on all of these factors, this hadith would be rejected based on the Hanafi principles of testing hadith.
How Muslim Scholars are Destroying Islam
This is yet another wonderful illustration of the lengths the so-called ‘representatives’ of Islam will go to to pervert the religion. In fact, this a favourite pass time for all kinds of Salafi groups (and here one must include the Deoband sect of South Asia as well unfortunately).
In this incident on ‘Facebook’, a Hanafi adept called Sulaiman Ahmed is making the entirely true and obvious case that Imam Maturidi, the codifier of Hanafi creed, did not consider the idea that the Prophet Muhammad was affected by ‘Black Magic’, and thereby driven insane and sexually impotent (as the hadith in Bukhari states), to be licit in Islam. Of course, as Salafis are highly inclusive of hadith from Bukhari, they find this position to be inconvenient. At the same time, by rejecting Maturidi creed, they are outing themselves as modernists and Wahhabis, which they are loathe to do as it will make their sectarian affiliation clear, lose them followers and make them unable to groom vulnerable youngsters.
The solution? Well, just lie about what Imam Maturidi said in his famous ‘Kitaab Ut Tawhid‘ (‘The Book of Monotheism‘), which neither Deobandis nor others claiming to be ‘Hanafi’, in distinction to the books of their modern day Imams, have deigned to translate. Using this, and the assumption that the laity is ignorant of basic classical Arabic, they conduct a series of bald lies to claim that Maturidi, who he is clearly saying he does not accept this incident of Black Magic nor the hadith it is based on, is in fact saying the exact opposite.
Witness how far they are willing to go in their efforts, which I am sure would leave the most brazen religious hoaxers of the past blushing…
Remember, this being a Facebook exchange, there are numerous grammatical and spelling/readability errors. I have tried my best to correct these without changing the text and added my comments in blue to explain the tortuous but worthwhile discussion to the uninitiated.
My ‘commentary’ is in blue and obviously not part of the actual exchange. BTW, I also love how these scholars clearly hate and insult each other!
It is long and difficult to follow, but of great benefit if you can bear it, as it will show clearly the tactics and misdirections of Muslim Scholars. It is rather like those shows that reveal how magicians perform their illusions.
But bear in mind – if it takes a guy who can read Arabic and is a scholar himself this much effort to reveal the deception, what chance do the ordinary Muslims like us have against the machinations of Muslim scholars. Is it any wonder that many Muslim youth are easily ‘radicalised’?
The only question Muslims and others should have by the end of this is that if Muslim scholars and apologists are so brazenly lying in religious matters, why believe anything they say?
The original post from ‘Facebook’ by a Hanafi scholar, ‘SA’ here:https://www.facebook.com/sulaiman.ahmed.98/posts/804058113023405:0
Black Magic and Shaykh Abu Mansur al-Maturidi
(Qur a’udhu birab al-falaq)
Faqeeh [Abu Mansur] said;
This command of Kul [ayat of the Quran] is to seek protection and 3 explanations were given:
[This is the opinion of Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi]
- God is Teaching, BUT NOT FOR A PROBLEM THAT HAPPENED IN THAT TIME, but because God knew the huge harm of the things that are mentioned [in the verse] [then Abu Mansur mentioned the different effects of Satan and his tribe].
I hope these guys know the meaning of ‘Qeeela’ and ‘Ruwiyah’. So ‘Qeela’ is used on the book to show it is a weak opinion. Again, brothers just need to open any classical book and study.
Dear Reader: remember this – at the very outset it has been stated by this scholar what the Arabic term ‘Qeeela‘ means. You would think this would curtail the ability of Salafists to obfuscate.
But you would be wrong.
- Qeela[some said]; Jibreel [the Arabic name of the Angel Gabriel] came to the Prophet (PBUH) and informed him that some ‘ifreet’ (or ‘Jinn’ basically the same meaning as it’s English usage as spiritual creature) is plotting against him, so seek protection by these two verses from the harm that may come when you will go to sleep.
This is a reference to a fabricated Hadith that didn’t survive until our time – but the next one did
- Qeela[some said]; one of the Jews performed magic on the Prophet (PBUH) so that is why this verse [of the Quran] was sent.
Abu Bakr al-Asamm said; They mentioned some hadith which are impossible so I ignored that.
Now this ‘Abu Bakr’ is giving the Mutazalite opinion – we don’t know which of the two fabricated Hadith he is talking about but this has nothing to do with Abu Mansoor’s opinion above.
Faqeeh [again, this means Abu Mansur al Maturidi] said; But according to us as QEELA [some said] that Prophet PBUH was affected by magic, there are two ways of proving his Prophethood;
- That the Prophet knew about the magic by revelation. It was done secretly, and no one could know it except by revelation.
- Quran is invalidating the effect of magic, just as the staff of Moses destroyed the effect of Pharaohs’ magicians tricks…but as for curtailing the effect of magic by reading Quran, this is only by the mercy of God. God knows better.
Anyway AL–ASL our initial position is that the command of asking for protection is shared by the people who need it if they have some problem, and it is TA’LEEM [instructional] for them….
Shaykh Atabek then explains:
Abu Mansur mentioned three meanings of this command of reading the Surah, and indicated that the first is his opinion, as he gave an explanation. And at the end he reconfirmed that ‘ASL‘ his initial position is the first meaning. Then he mentioned two other opinions by saying ‘QEELA‘ means ‘some said’. People who studied Islamic sciences know the meaning of ‘qeela‘. It is a confirmation from the scholars that what follows it is a weak opinion. And Abu Mansur didn’t justify these two ‘qeelas’, or weak opinions nor support them.
Then he mentioned what Abu Bakr Assam the Mutazilite said, i.e. rejected the Hadith.
Then he mentioned two answers given from someone from ‘Ahl Sunnah’, but again he mentioned these with QEELA, meaning ‘some said’.
At the end Abu Mansur reconfirmed that his stance about this issue is the first of three opinions.
Look at the last red portion, right at the beginning he said; ‘Thumma al-Asl indana’.
From here we understand that Abu Mansur rejected that The Prophet was affected by magic as he confirmed in theSura al–Isra that I quoted. According to Abu Mansur, the command of reading this portion of the Quran is not to the Prophet because of some problem that happened to the Prophet himself [namely, his being allegedly affected by black magic], but it is to teach his nation.
But I know there are people who are insisting that Prophet was affected by Black Magic and that is why God ordered him to ask a protection from a ‘Satan of the hearts’.
And what is the ‘heart’? The heart of the Prophet is the very place where the Quran was revealed – as God said.
I didn’t mention this text from the start because as you see it is long text with many opinions and details, which may confuse the people.
I will repost that text of Abu Mansur which is very clear even for a layman…
SA: Sheikh Abu Mansur Maturidi speaks about two verses that people believe to have been revealed in the incident of black magic. Please follow the text;
(‘Qul a’udhu birabbi al-nas’) explicitly looks like being an order to the Prophet PBUH to do this specific thing – seeking refuge – that’s how after the command it is mentioned (‘I seek refuge by the Lord of people’)
– But God knows better, it’s meaning is two things;
- It is an order to the people to whom he is passing it onto, and it is teaching them…
2. The order is for others. But order of saying is left there so it will be a continuous command for ever.
Again Shaykh Atabek explains:
– As you can see, Abu Mansur didn’t accept that this order is directed towards the Prophet as these people who believe in his being affected by black magic claim.
– If we go with these people however, then look at what God is allegedly ordering the Prophet PBUH to seek protection from; a ‘Waswas’ [whisper or perversion] that makes deception in the heart of people.
Now a question;
Do you guys believe that Prophets’ heart is reachable for the Satans’ of jinn and ins to do waswasah? If ‘no’ then the order of reading these Suras is not to Muhammad (SAW) but to the people as Abu Mansur said. Lets look at the next text.
God informed his Prophet about a secret conversation that Mushriks [Meccan polytheist opponents of Muhammad] had. That was a proof for him being a Prophet, because how else could he know that conversation except by divine intervention? And God calls these Mushriks ‘Dhalimeen’ – oppressors because they knew that the Prophet is not insane and nor he is a person affected by magic. But mushriks alleged these things nonetheless, and described the Prophet as insane and debilitated by magic – knowing all along that The Prophet is not.
So here is an easy and clear denial from Abu Mansur saying that Muhammad wasn’t affected by magic. Now it is worth knowing who are the ones who say that The Prophet was affected;
Mushriks of Quraish (as Quran mentioned)
Orientalists (many of whom accept this and the ‘Satanic verses’ story for obvious reasons)
Some of Ja’faris
As we saw, some of them called the rejection of the Prophet being affected by magic a ”dangerous and false claim”. So, regardless, I follow Quran, Abu Mansur and Abu Bakr in favour of this ‘dangerous claim’.
This really is all that needs to be said on the matter, from a Hanafite perspective at least. To anyone who is familiar with scholarly Arabic, the issue is at least and all references have been given explicitly. If you understand the Arabic, it is undeniable that that is the position of the Maturidis (whether you agree with it is another matter).
But those expecting such honesty from Muslim scholars are about to be sorely disappointed…
MJ: This text does not in no way reject magic. The only place this is mentioned regarding the narration is Abu Bakr al-Assam and as has already been pointed out, he had mu’tazili tendencies and I’m sorry but that’s not evidence in the religion. Even then, here it is referring to the reason of revelation of this Surah (Sabab an-nuzool). Nowhere does it state the magic cannot occur based on how you are deriving your opinions and ideas.You say that Allah in the Qur’an says the Messenger ﷺ is protected. Because of this verse you say magic is not possible. Firstly, how have you done takhsees (specifying) of magic? Where is your evidence for takhsees? Why have you specified this verse for magic and not for other harm that came to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ like Abu Jahl throwing rotten meat on the Messenger of Allah ﷺ?
Note, despite the clear opinion of Maturidi having been presented with the original text and word for word ‘scanlation’ as well as clear commentary by the Imam himself, a denial is forthcoming.
As per Salafist protocol, it ignores the texts and demands the throwing out of any evidence as it is from a ‘Mutazzilite’ and thus a heretic – although it was Maturidi’s opinion and Al Assam, the alleged Mutazilite was quoted by Maturidi, as well as ‘Ahlus Sunnah’, and along with them refuted. But to trigger readers, the interloper ignores everything, banks on the readers’ having no Arabic competence and invokes ‘Mutazzilites’, hoping this will make you shut off your brain as you have been pre-conditioned by Deobandis and others that mu’tazzilites are the worst heretics ever (it is interesting to note that despite their alleged heresy hunting, Salafis are more than happy to take narrations from the violent Kharijites, who are equally heretical, but not the rationalist Mutazzilites, a bone of contention between Salafis and their bitter enemies the Shi’ítes)
SA: Look Jamilli are you back? Last time you guys caused a wave and then ran off. You guys were so dodgy as you accept the Hadith yet won’t confirm that you then believe that the Prophet lost his mind or became impotent. This is complete dishonesty.
Here Ahmed is making reference to the fact that those who accept that the Prophet was effected by ‘black magic’ do so on the basis of hadith, and these same hadith state explicitly that the Prophet lost his mind for a period of up to three months and became sexually impotent at the same time.
Finding this embarrassing, they try not to mention this and when asked if they believe in the insanity and impotence, resort to obfuscation and merely state the disease (black magic) and not the symptoms. But this is flagrant lying.
YA He confirms the sihr [black magic] in the passage brother
SA: Brother, translate all the text word for word and especially the last page where Abu Mansoor explicitly explains this, and then according to you God is lying.
SA: MJ, by ‘you guys’ I mean the people working with you such as that Deobandi brother and the people from Arab peninsula that you mentioned.
You insulted, publicly called us heretics then you went to ‘private message’ and tried to dodge the issue when I said clearly to you to bring this up in public and I will refute it. As I saw your dishonesty and you ran away.
As I always said in discussion with you guys I’m willing to do it only publicly since you have shown that you practice‘Takiyah’ [not admitting to one’s true beliefs in public].
Your filthy language is also unbelievable: I will never call a person a ‘dog’. It’s embarrassing.
I’m ready to carry on the dialogue about these issues but first I ask for honesty and sticking to the point and you brining equivalent proof.
So I honestly begin:
My premise is that: I reject Hadith in Bukhari and as such I don’t believe that the Prophet was affect by magic.
Your premise: you accept all Hadith in Bukhari and as such do you accept the conclusion that Prophet lost his mind or was impotent?
Clearly, Ahmad is referring to previous campaigns of slander and anathematisation by the advocates of the position that the Prophet was affected by magic. These are easily seen online. Note that he has again translated the relevant passage verbatim and stated his and Imam Maturidi’s position clearly.
YA: It isn’t ‘guys’ calling those who adopt your opinion heretics it is Badr al-Din al-Ayni and others.
YA: It is weird that you advise brothers that they need nothing more to understand the science of hadith than one small book. While you completely disparage individuals who have spent significant portions of their live studying abroad and studying many books. If people should go study, then with who? You and your shaykh? Those who are obviously propagating opinions that the classical scholars said are innovation and heresy What does studying abroad here have to do with your rejection of hadith? Nothing.
I comment on this because this is a favourite tactic of Salafists and Deobandis who wish to market themselves as Hanafites or Sunnis: notice that he ignores Maturidi, who is in fact the ‘author’ of Hanafite creed and instead name drops a Salafi and Deobabandi favourite, the hadith scholar Badr al Din Al Ayni – the very same scholar who neglected Hanafite principles to make a compromise with the Muhaditheen. Note that Ahmad had already said that in contradistinction to the Hanafites, the muhaditheen, including those like Ayni who ‘sold out’ to Muhaditheen principles, accept that black magic was done on the Prophet, so what is the point of his opponent saying this?
It illustrates for us nicely that when Salafis wish to infiltrate the ‘madhabs‘, and especially the Maliki and Hanafi schools, they quote mine much later scholars who were advocates of abandoning Hanafi and Maliki creedal principles and hadith methodology and accepting the redaction of Bukhari and the other Muhaditheen uncritically.
In essence, he is saying that you should learn the positions of Hanafis and others through the Muhaditheen, which is absurd as in most cases they were opponents.
YA: Why don’t you translate the first wajh Maturidi mentions:
بما علمه بالوحي أنه سحر [he helpfully does not translate it either]
SA: Yaqub you’re not even smart enough to realise that there were two different threads [on Facebook]. So what if Badr Al-din al-Ayni said it, people who everyone considers untouchable scholars called Abu Hanifa heretic. That doesn’t prove anything. We know Ayni loved Bukhari.
People you quoted yourself insulted Ghazali too so that doesn’t prove anything.
This is a good point: people name drop scholars as if they were all some kind of monolithic mass. This is nonsense. Imams like Shafi and Malik insulted each other and we know that people until the time of Ghazzali (himself not excluded) were insulting the founders of rival schools (in his case he insulted Abu Hanifa due to his esteemed teacher Imam Al Juwayni’s conflict with the Hanafites). The point is that Ayni agrees with Bukhari against Maturidi, so is inadmissible as evidence for Maturidi’s positions.
YA: And highlight who is actually rejecting the hadith in this passage. It is Abu Bakr al-Asamm, the Mutazilite.
قال أبو بكر الأصم ذكروا في هذه السورة حديثا مما لا يجوز فتركته
[again, no translation offered, despite the discussion taking place in English, a favourite Salafi tactic which you must be aware of. The reason for not translating will become obvious here too]
Maturidi is refuting Asamm who rejected the hadith. Hence the word ولكن.
SA: You are so dishonest it is unbelievable. When scholars say ‘Qeeela’ they mean it is ‘weak’, have you studied anything at all? Assam didn’t reject the Hadith he didn’t even mention which of the two Hadith he is rejecting
Stop wasting our time and snipping bits and being evil. Translate it all.
YA: I am not going to translate it. Anyone who comes can read it and judge for their own selves.
YA: When scholars say ولكن they are indicating to what comes after to be preferred.
YA: After that Maturidi confirms the sihr.
YA: If you have another place he denies it, or Imam Abu Hanifa for that matter, please share it.
YA: You can see also that Asamm’s line of argument is basically the same thing as yours.
Although Assam’s opinion is not given in the text anyway, and it is not even clear what Maturidi is attributing to him or which hadith Assam rejected, we have the ‘you are a Mu’tazzilite’ hurling to try and anathematise Ahmed in the eyes of the readers. Note again the brazen refusal to translate. And now he is asking for an opinion of Abu Hanifa as opposed to Maturidi – the whole idea is to get the inconvenient Maturidi out of the picture.
SA: Yaqub stop playing games and translate all of it. You’re taking snippets like a dodgy guy. You not translating shows your deception. No more snippets. Translate ALL THE TEXT, especially the bit where Imam Maturidi says (‘Thuma Al Asloo Inthana‘). If you refuse, then don’t come back.
YA: If you want the whole passage translated. Do it yourself.
Huh?! Then why argue?
SA: Lol too funny. You’re not willing to translate, only to take just snippets
MJ: Oh and Shaykh Hasan Hitu and others in aqidah islamiyyah also mentions what Marizi said when speaking of magic
Another interloper appears and immediately begins name dropping. Notice how no one is willing to engage with or even translate what Maturidi has said in plain Arabic – namely that he rejects that the Prophet was ever afflicted with black magic. The game here is to name drop and obfuscate to avoid having to openly reject Maturidi and hence anathematise one of the Imams of creed (Salafis true position vis-a-vis Asharis and Maturidis)
SA: Jamili, option to translate all of it is there for you too. But before you do, confirm your position. Again don’t post until you do this and you both confirm your position.
YA: Again, anyone who comes can review the passage from Maturidi and evaluate it themselves.
Tahawi confirms the sihr, ‘Ayni confirms it and calls those who reject the hadith innovators. ‘Ayni’s position is also what is taken by Hafiz Ibn Hajar and Maziri.
Do you have a clear statement from Maturidi in which he rejected this hadith? Do you have a clear statement from Imam Abu Hanifah in which he rejected this hadith?
Again, a bunch of guys who are not Maturidi (or even Hanafi in some cases) accept black magic – but the discussion is not on whether these hadith scholars accept it or not but rather what Maturidi said – which Ahmed’s opponents are unwilling to translate, even though they insist on conducting this charade in English, for the purpose of confusing English readers who can’t read the Arabic. Salafis love to ‘acquire’ as many English speakers as they can, thereby making it easier for them to spread their ideology in the dominant language and to the dominant region of the time.
Also, note that since the beginning, neither of the interlopers have stated their position on the Prophet suffering from insanity and impotence – the whole ‘discussion’ is a mere charade.
SA: Like I said don’t bring names of people as proof: I already said all these accepted magic.
Mushriks of Quraish (as Quran mentioned)
Some of Ja’faris
Both of you should confirm your position and translate all the text
YA: Wait, are you saying you do not accept sihr altogether? I would take the opinion of a great hadith scholar like Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani or Badr al-Din al-‘Ayni regarding who is a heretic over yours. We accept the opinion of the scholars of jarh and ta’dil regarding establishing innovation and ascribing that to individuals.
Again, an attempt to impugn and anathematise Ahmed, a Hanafite, as a Mu’tazzilite by attributing the Mutazzilite denial of Black Magic to him, a baseless diversion. Note again, that we are to name drop hadith scholars and ignore what Maturidi said (which is what is under discussion).
Another learning point here is that Salafis would like you to learn creed from the (late) scholars of hadith like Ibn Hajar or Ayni. But the Imams of creed are entirely different. This is like asking your doctor to fly a jumbo jet. In fact, this is the distinction between the Maliki and Hanafite versus the Salafist position – the latter would like to bin the opinions of the Imams of creed such as Maturidi, Tahawi, Ashari, Ghazali etc in favour of a literalist adoption of context-less hadith from muhaditheen. This is just the people of jurisprudence versus the people of hadith in a different guise, with the interlopers name dropping hadith scholars hoping you will be too naive to notice what is going on. Notice the peppering of Arabic terminology sans explanation or translation to try and impress the reader – again, standard Salafist operating procedure to show they have knowledge.
Hilariously, Ibn Hajar is neither Hanafi nor Maturidi.
MJ: After he mentioned all three opinions he has adopted the first approach which is to teach. However, he is stating that the seeking refuge was revealed to teach and not because of something that occurred. So from this, he is stating that his opinion that the Sabab nuzool (the reason of revelation) was to teach and not because of an occurrence. This does not mean he negated that magic has its effect. This in usool is not a dhahir never mind a nass.
So, as Ibn Hajar says in Hadi Us-Sari, Bukhari is confirmed Sahih by ‘udool (trustworthy narrators) and the ummah has accepted it, so if you want to break this code, you need to bring a hujjah zahirah (a clear, absolute proof)!
Seeing that the ruse is in danger, this guy finally tries commentary and partial translation of Maturidis text, where he argues that Maturidi stated that the reason for the revelation of the verses of the Quran allegedly dealing with black magic was not because black magic occurred but to teach people about it (which is true). But he absurdly claims that even this does not constitute denial of black magic by Maturidi, since he is merely saying that the reason for the verses revelation is not black magic being done on the Prophet. But maybe he still believed that it had been done. Which I hope you realise is a stretch at best – so he then goes on to say that Maturidimust have accepted black magic…because the later non-Hanafi imams of hadith who came after him did. So the game is the same – a flimsy translation and the assertion as above that the final say on creed is not with the imams of creed such as Maturidi, but rather with muhaditheen such as Bukhari and his famous commentator (and non-Hanafite) Ibn Hajar Asqalani.
This could have been shortened to ‘it doesn’t matter what Maturidi says, go with the hadith and muhaditheen‘ – but that would have given the game away. Notice how he is confusing the audience in his first paragraph – where he basically admits what Ahmed has been saying all along – by once again dropping untranslated (and irrelevant) Arabic terms to show how clever he is. This is the same as a physicist turning up and saying things like ‘entanglement’, ‘black body radiation’ and ‘Scwarzchild radius’ without any context or explanation, hoping that this would cow you into being impressed with him.
But no physicist would ever act as stupidly as a Muslim scholar (though some have tried).
Also, a question for consideration: why is it SO important to believe that the Prophet was affected by black magic and became impotent and deluded?
SA: This is not the first time your brought Ibn Hajar as proof. This time you are demanding absolute evidence because of the opinion of Ibn Hajar. Can you then confirm that Prophet revealed SATANIC VERSES as Ibn Hajar believes and stated it, and if you don’t believe this, can you bring absolute evidence to disprove the opinion of Ibn Hajar?
Ahmad is stating that since Ibn Hajar, the much later 15th century (died 1449 CE), who MJ is demanding be taken as an authority in Maturidi creed (despite his being not only an A’sharite but a mu’haddith and not a theologian), believes in the authenticity of the ‘Satanic Verses’ incident, does MJ accept this or is his offer of Ibn Hajar as a proof and an authority spurious?
MJ: I’m sorry Sulaiman but this is not how the religion works. You are the one that needs to bring evidence. As you should be aware of in fiqh, the hujjah is upon the one who wants to break what is set. So bring your hujjah zahirah forth.
This is how a debate works. Otherwise it’s just throwing things left, right and centre.
MJ: Also this is not the opinion of Ibn Hajar solely. This is in the fatwa of Ibn Salah and many others of Ahl Us -Sunna across all the schools. Anybody who has read on this topic will be aware of this.
I wouldn’t want to state my position either if I believed what this MJ ‘scholar’ does. Notice that Ibn Salah is anotherhadith scholar and partisan of Ibn Hajar, in the sense that he is the main person responsible for the popularisation of Bukhari’s redaction and advocating for the ‘abrogation’ of the Hanafi and Maliki as well as other hadith methodologies in favour of blind adherence to that of Muhaditheen as typified by Imam Bukhari. So we have the same game again – you can only learn about Maturidi creed from other people who were not of his school and did not even address it, and worse still were opposed to him. And even then, they can only be from the muhaditheen. And only some of them etc.
Notice that the liberal dropping of Arabic terms, none of which are relevant, continues to show how learned and what a good ‘scholar’ MJ is. He is claiming that Ahmed needs to bring the proof ‘to break what is set’ – but it was ‘set’ by Ibn Hajar et al – so why can’t Ahmed mention that if they are the ones doing the setting, must we not also accept their other, err, ‘idiosyncratic’ stances such as that the Prophet accepted shirk (associating partners with God) in the ‘Satanic Verses’ incident (another issue rejected by Maturidi but accepted by others, especially the muhaditheen)?
SA: Jamilli I will give you some credit, at least you admitted about the translation, unlike the other person.
Now my claim and premise was that Abu Mansoor rejected that black magic was done on the Prophet as per what the Hadith in Bukhari states.
He does this 3 times in the text.
Firstly, the Hadith in Bukhari is explaining the Asbab Nuzool [reason for] the revelation, Imam Maturidi rejected this explanation as he said it is to TEACH and NOT because Magic occurred. The Hadith in Bukhari is saying the opposite – that magic occurred and this is the reason for the revelation.
Secondly, the position held by Bukhari is called by Imam Maturidi ‘Qeela’, i.e weak.
Thirdly, he narrates the verse in the Quran where it was states MUSHRIKS [Meccan pagans or polytheists] said Prophet (PBUH) was affected by MAGIC and he was INSANE. However, this is what the actual Hadith in Bukhari says, so God was wrong to insult them because according to the Hadith in Bukhari, Muhammad was affected by magic and he was insane.
Now as per the rules of Islamic debate please state your premise and claim and being the proof from the books.
This is merely what the text of Maturidi says and what was stated by Shukurov and Ahmed at the beginning – so what was the point of the profuse obfuscations by MJ and YA?
YA: Admitted what about what translation?
YA: In the passage, the only one who rejects the narration outright is the Mutazilite Abu Bakr al-Asamm.
SA: YA, I’ve been advised by brothers to keep patient and the truth will come out. As you have not made a single academic comment in the last week, if you post again you will be removed. I’m sorry but time is a precious commodity and I could be using it to help people.
As long as MJ remains honest and follows the rules of discussion, I will continue to respond to him.
Quite right. YA is simply unable or unwilling to read Arabic and indeed has been contradicted by his own side in MJ. It is tantamount to argue in front of someone who cannot read Chinese that something that says ‘right’ is saying ‘wrong’, on the assumption that the audience will fall for it due to not being Chinese. This is astonishingly banal in front of people who can speak Chinese however.
MJ First and foremost I do not see the reason for your blocking Shaykh YA. It is totally unnecessary.
On to the topic, Your claim is Abu Mansoor rejects the Hadith which is in Bukhari. I ask you, where does he say that? Abu Mansoor, Rahimahu Allah, has done tarjih (preference) and has stated clearly that he does not see the reason of revelation of this Surah to be because of an occurrence that happened. In أضواء البيان, [curiously, yet again selectively untranslated – see later] the author says the mufasiroon [Quranic commentators] are unanimous that this was revealed due to that. Furthermore, as Shaykh Yaqub stated previously, after that statement of Abu Bakr al-Assam, Abu Mansoor used ‘Lakin’ [Arabic for ‘but’] which is him making clear he DOES NOT take accept what Abu Bakr al-Assam said and then said the Messenger of Allah ﷺ was affected by magic and then explained this opinion in two ways. At the end of it, Abu mansoor clearly states that his opinion is that this Surah was revealed with the first opinion he mentioned which is to teach, but nowhere does he state that he rejects magic to have been done on the Prophet ﷺ. Rather, he affirms that this is an opinion but he sees this Surah to be revealed for teaching.
Secondly, the Hadith in Bukhari is not not under any title for the tafsir [exegesis, especially of Quran] or reason of revelation of this chapter. Rather, you will find it under the chapter of magic and whether a dhimmi [essentially a non-Muslim in a ‘Muslim’ land] is killed because of magic performance.
Finally, as is clearly stated in the books of aqidah and you may open any one you wish, you will find that magic cannot affect the Messenger of Allah ﷺ in his mind nor in revelation. Other than that, it may have affected him ﷺ just like any other illness and then passed and this was also mentioned by Abu Mansoor in that text.
Now I will relate to you who has narrated this Hadith and let the public be aware that this is not a joke to just play with Hadith and use your minds as you wish. Allah gave you an intellect and it is a tool which the law praises but it never ever rules what the shari’ah has stipulated:
This Hadith is in Bukhari in five chapters [Notice the trick here: he wants you to think it is five hadith or five chains. It is merely the same hadith and the same chain, repeated five times in Bukhari’s book. In an astonishing display of dishonesty, he admits this below while restating the alleged multiplicity while trying to conceal that all of the chains converge on the same narrator i.e the hadith is single chain and ahad]. In the narration of Ibn Namir, who is a trustworthy narrator which the scholars narrate from and so does Ahmad and Ibn Al-Madini (Tahdheeb, Ibn Sa’d, Ibn Abi Hatim), Ahmad narrates from this Hadith in ‘Al-Musnad’ and so does Muslim in his ‘Sahih’ on the authority of Abu Kurayb. Ibn Maajah narrates this on the authority of Abu Bakr b. Shaybah and both narrators from Ibn Namir.
Also, many of the trustworthy narrators have narrated this on the authority of Hisham b. ‘Urwah, then his father and then Aishah, May Allah be Pleased with her. This chain is found in Musnad of Ahmad via Ma’mar and another chain via Abu Usama b. Hammad b. Usama. Bukhari and Muslim both narrate via Abu Usama. Ahmad and Ibn Sa’d narrate via Wuhayb. Bukhari narrates it again via Isa b. Younus, and via Ibn ‘Uyaynah, and via Anas b. ‘iyadh Abu Dhamrah. Then Bukhari also narrates it Mu’allaqan from the narration of Layth b. Sa’d. All of these narrated on the authority of Hisham b. Urwah, then his father and then ‘Aishah, May Allah be Pleased with her. Then Bukhari says after the narration of ‘Isa b. Yunus, “he heard it before that from Ibn Jurayh” and says, “the family of Urwah recited to me on the authority of ‘Urwah.” Also, Ibn ‘Uyaynah asked Hisham about him and he narrated it to him on the authority of his father and then ‘Aishah, May Allah be Pleased with her.
Ibn Kathir also narrated this in his tafsir of ‘Surah Falaq’.
A similar occurrence was also narrated in the Hadith of Zayd b. Arqam. Ahmad relates this in his Musnad 4:367 (Halabi) on the authority of Abu Mu’awiyah, ‘Amash, Yazid b. Hayyan then Zayd b. Arqam. And this is a sound chain. Yazid b. Hayyan Abu Hayyan at-Taymi is a trustworthy narrator and a tabi’i (tahdheeb, Al-Kabir of Bukhari, Ibn Abi Hatim).
Ibn Sa’d also related this on the authority of Musa b. Mas’ud, on the authority of Sufyan ath-Thawri, on the authority of Al-‘Amash, on the authority of of Thumamah Al-Muhallimi, on the authority of Zayd b. Arqam. This chain is also sound. All narrators in this are trustworthy (Thiqah).
Al-Haythami also narrates this in Majma’ az-Zawaid with two narrations. He said, “Nasa’i related it in short and then Tabarani did so with many chains and the narrators in one of those chains are sahih (sound).
As you all see, there are many narrators of this Hadith and many of the names will be famous and known to you. When a Hadith scholar says they are trustworthy, they test them vigorously before they pass a comment as this is sound or not.
We do not neglect the intellect, however how can your intellect neglect all of these trustworthy narrators and the ones I have mentioned is just a drop in the sea.
These people and many more prior to them which were refuted by the likes of Al-Marizi and others claim that such narration removes trust in legislating the religion because it is possible, if this is allowed, that they may say they met Jibreel but they actually didn’t. However, this is all rejected because evidence is established that the Prophet ﷺ is truthful by Qur’an in what he ﷺ relates from Allah and that he ﷺ is protected in propagating the message. And as is known in usool and logic, to make permissible that which is already established by evidence is nullified. Therefore, the claim they make at the start is already null.
In regards to your point of mushrikeen, the tafsir is rejecting the claim that they made regarding him ﷺ being affected by magic when he ﷺ recited upon them the Qur’an and that he ﷺ is the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. This is mentioned by Ahl us-Sunna as I just mentioned that he ﷺ is protected as is clearly mentioned by Qur’an in these regards.
The principle I mentioned at the end in Arabic is
تجويز ما قام الدليل على خلافه باطل
Here we see the game afoot. According to this scholar, the translation is wrong after all. But this is just the entrée (for now, he will come back to this), his main course, as you will see, is that:
- We have to accept the hadith because it is Bukhari, and I named dropped a bunch of narrators
- Don’t use your intellect to question or reject hadith if they have ‘sound’ chains
- Only my chosen Muhaditheenn have the right to define sound chains, not Malikis or Hanafis, and especially not the early pre-Bukhari ones
He then contradicts himself and applies and demands the ‘intellect and logic’ to stipulate how the black magic affected the Prophet and ignores the hadith of Bukhari which says his mind and sexual potency was affected. This is sadly typical of the scholars of today and especially the Salafists – literalists, but when challenged, suddenly rationalists.
Likewise, he has interpreted the Quranic injunction that only the Mushrikeen and dhalimoon accuse the Prophet of being affected by Black Magic as meaning that the Prophet will not be affected by magic when it comes to reciting the Quran but in other things (like sanity), he can be. And he claims this is known by ‘logic’. Leave aside that this is absurd since how can one be insane and yet be reliable in religious matters, but we can see there is no consistency – we are to accept the hadith based on narrators and yet reject what it says based on logic. I don’t even know what they call that, err, ‘epistemology’.
The idea of specifying or abrogating verses of the Quran, here seen in the example of the Quran saying that only ‘bad’ people accuse Muhammed of being affected by Black magic, by using the hadith is the methodology of Muhaditheen and Shafis as well. It is clearly rejected by Hanafites and again, Ahmad as a Hanafite is being compelled to reconcile a hadith with the Quran when that lack of concordance is the very basis in Hanafite methodology to not accept the hadith in the first place.
Notice once again, naming something in Arabic makes it automatically ‘true‘.
SA: I’ve responded to your points academically and I have numbered each point. Please respond to each number to keep on point.
- a) “I do not see the reason for your blocking Shaykh Yaqub Abdurrahman.”
Here are the statements of YA:
“Why don’t you translate the first wajh Maturidi mentions” “He confirms the sihr in the passage brother” “I am not going to translate it. Anyone who comes can read it and judge for their own selves” “If you want the whole passage translated. Do it yourself.”
I blocked your Shaykh as he was making completely non-academic points, not willing to take the time to translate but instead posting snippets which I see as dishonest and a way of confusing people, he did this the last time and wasted all of our time for 2 days without bringing any proof, he posted after I warned him so I blocked him. Back on point please and let’s keep it academic.
1) “Your claim is Abu Mansoor rejects the Hadith which is in Bukhari. I ask you, where does he say that?”
Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi states the word “Qeela” before he mentions the narration about the Jewish person performing black magic on the Prophet (PBUH). “Qeela” is “Seeghat al-Tamreedh” (Weakening Form) which I hope you know, “Seeghat al-Tamreedh” is used as a means of rejecting whatever comes after, which is the Jewish person performing black magic on the Prophet
2) “In Adhwaaul Biyaan, the author says the mufasiroon are unanimous that this was revealed due to that”
Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi was a Mujtahid [highest level] Mufassir [commentator of Quran], Mujtahid Mutaqallim [theologian] and Mujtahid Faqhee [jurist]. Abu Bakr al-Jassas al-Hanafi was Mujtahid Mufassir, Mujtahid Usuli and Mujtahid Mujtahid Faqhee.
You quoted Ijma [consensus – basically saying that all Muslims agree on something] from “Adhwaaul Biyaan” a book written by “Muhammed Amin bin Mohammed Mukhtaar Shanqiti” who died in 1973. He is a Salafist-Mujassim [anthropomorphist]. I am a Hanafi and you refuted the position of a Mujtahid Hanafi Imam by narrating from a Salafist. I was not aware that this discussion was with a Salafist, anyway back to the Hanafi point.
So you admitted Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi’s position was that the reason for revelation of Surah al-Falaq and Surah an-Nass was not due to Black Magic and yet you quoted Ijma from a Salafist to say the reason for revelationwas Black Magic. He will most likely be narrating form Qurtubi and he is not Mujtahid [again, a high level or in some interpretations the highest level of Islamic scholarship]. So you either contradicted yourself by narrating both or you believe Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi went against Ijma. Please check the rules of Ijma as you cannot have Ijma (= consensus} without Mujtahids agreeing on it. In fact, the two Mujtahids Mufassirs rejected black magic as a reason for revelation. For me these Mujtahid Mufassirs are well above all the other Mufassirs that you can even think about mentioning.
If you want a quote from a non-Mujtahid then, Shaykh Muhammed Tahir ibn Ash’oor, a Maliki Ashari, in ‘Tafsir Al-Tahrir Wal Tanwir’, Vol 30, p. 631 also rejects magic as the reason for the revelation of the two verses. They are contemporaries but I will take the position of a Maliki over a Salafist.
Ijma can only be established by Mujtahid Mufassir, and if there is only one Mujtahid Mufassir then what he says is Ijma.
Can you name the Mujtahid Mufassir who created this ijma that your Salafist Shaykh is claiming? You will need to find these Mujtahid Mufassirs who followed what you said, Salafi-Mujasim Muqallids do not bring forth any weight to the argument. But the two Mujtahids I mentioned are giants and if they say no magic that’s ijma. But muqallids [basically, lower level scholar who have to follow the mujtahids] agreeing on something opposite to this is breaking ijma, and Ibn Hajar, Ibn Salah, Qadi Iyad, Maziri and Qurtubi are all Muqaallids, not Mujtahids
3) “that statement of Abu Bakr al-Assam”
Please can you quote Abu Bakr al-Assam verbatim please, what is he exactly rejecting?
4) “after that statement of Abu Bakr al-Assam, Abu Mansoor used ‘Lakin’ which is him making clear he DOES NOT accept what Abu Bakr al-Assam said”
‘Lakin’ does not support your position. On the contrary, he says ‘Lakin Intha’na fee ma QEELA’ which means “but according to us in terms of what was said, that the Prophet was affected by magic…” So once again he is not affirming but stating “Qeela” which once again is “Seegahtu al Tamreeb”. [see above]
5) “the Hadith in Bukhari is not not under any title for the tafsir or reason of revelation of this chapter. Rather, you will find it under the chapter of magic and whether a dhimmi is killed because of magic performance.”
You quoted from your Mujassim scholar that it was Ijma that the narration was for the two verses, so you according to you Bukhari is rejecting Ijma as he has not put it under the chapter of “Reason of Revelation”. Unless you are accepting Bukhari’s position and as such you are suggesting that the magic occurred twice. One for the two verses and another time as Bukhari never mentioned it in the chapter on reasons for the revelation of certain verses.
6) “is clearly stated in the books of aqidah and you may open any one you wish, you will find that magic cannot affect the Messenger of Allah ﷺ in his mind nor in revelation.”
This is what I am asking you to do. Your hadith in Bukhari clearly states the Prophet lost his mind and was imagining events occurring. Are you rejecting this bit of the hadith or do you accept it? If you accept it then you are contravening the books of Aqeedah [creed or religious dogma] which I am upholding, if you reject that he lost his mind then you are also rejecting selective passages of the hadith. Please explain.
7) “it may have affected him ﷺ just like any other illness and then passed and this was also mentioned by Abu Mansoor in that text.”
It is not mentioned in the text. Bukhari says the Prophet (PBUH) lost his mind, Qadi Iyaad [a later Maliki scholar inclined towards Bukhari and the muhaditheen] said the Prophet was sexually impotent for one year: as he approached his wives, he would lose his erection. Are you rejecting a part of the text in Bukhari and talking the position of Qadi Iyaad? Or are you rejecting both positions and creating a new position?
8) “We do not neglect the intellect, however how can your intellect neglect all of these trustworthy narrators and the ones I have mentioned is just a drop in the sea”
The drop in the sea you speak of, have narrated this hadith in many different contradictory manners, so which drop shall I take as they are not from the same sea. In some narrations it is an immature kid who performs the magic, in others it is a Jewish person, in yet another it is a lady who performs the magic. In some narrations it happened for three days and in others for forty days.
In terms of the intellect and it’s primacy over the single chain narrations, the Hanafis, Shafis, Malikis and some Hanbalis such Ibnul Jawzi apply the intellect on the text of ahad [broadly speaking, single chain narrations]
Also the narrations that you have mentioned are weak even according to the Muhaditheen, because they contain weak and unreliable narrators.
You mentioned that this was narrated by “Ibn Saad and other Thiqaa narrators”. Are you making this statement intentionally or by mistake? All of these are weak. If you narrated this and you didn’t know that’s bad but if you know then that is really scary. You will struggle to find any authentic narration even according to the Muhaditheen except the Aisha one – which is narrated to only Urwa, which is then narrated to only his son Hisham [i.e single chain]. You also said Laith bin Saad narrated it but did you know he narrated it from Hisham? So there is no need to mention a big list of names when the reality is quite different and they are all from the same source.
9) Please translate the verse about magic and Shaykh Abu Mansoor’s Tafseer.
The statements of the brother trying to attribute being under magic and insanity to the Prophet Muhammad as per the Hadith in Bukhari sure do sound like the same statement made by the Mushriks which were admonished by God in the Quran.
- “Believing in possibility of opposite which was proven is void”
This principle is irrelevant except that I would say believing that the Prophet lost his mind/Impotent is batil (void).
- Also, a Mujtahid quoting something does not mean he believes in it, as we know the famous incident of Imam Malik – when someone came to him to ask about why he put the hadith about buying and selling and having a choice to nullify the transaction (which is also contained in Bukhari) in his ‘Muwatta’, but he rejected it. Imam Malik replied that “it was to let the people know that he rejected not because he didn’t know it but he rejected knowingly”.
I have taken some time to respond to your points, I expect an academic response, which is on point addressing the points I made without deviating I expect complete honesty, if this does not happen I will end the discussion as I could have used this time to do work that open minded people would actually benefit from.
There is not much to be said here apart from the note that we can see that Ahmed is actually bothering to translate and refraining from name dropping. He is naive to expect an academic discussion though, as will soon become clear.
MJ: 1) Abu Mansoor said ‘Lakin’ and then ‘fi ma qeel’. So he does not accept Abu Bakr’s statement and neither does he see this opinion to be the correct stance according to his tarjih for the reason of revelation. To make it plain and clear as I have already done, ABU MANSOOR HAS REJECTED THAT THIS WAS REVEALED BECAUSE OF THAT INCIDENT. This does not mean he rejected the Hadith. Where is the dilalal iltizaam in this which you are making?
Continued use of obscurantist language and untranslated terms to hide the simple fact that there is no factual content to this statement at all, other than to hide that Imam Maturidi unambiguously rejected black magic being done on the Prophet. MJ, who I remind you, is an Islamic scholar of ‘note’, shamelessly continues to obfuscate by saying that Maturidi is not rejecting that the Prophet suffered from black magic but rather that he rejects that there are passages of the Quran revealed for this purpose. Assuming that is true, in this lengthy dialogue, we have not seen MJ or his cronies show Maturidi’s acceptance, other than by insisting that there is no way that Maturidi could have disagreed with Bukhari et al so it must be true.
2) I quoted from that book and the author said ‘ittafaq’. By ‘unanimous’ I did not mean ‘ijma‘. Furthermore now you are hiding being men and saying Abu Mansoor a mujtahid is my evidence. You still have no leg to stand on because he has not rejected that Hadith on magic as I have made absolutely clear.
I hope the readers can appreciate the rank hypocrisy here of Muslim scholars: having appealed to argument from authority ad-nauseum, he is nonetheless affronted when it is applied against him. Even to the extent that he is objecting to the authority of Maturidi being used to show Maturidi’s own opinion!
Note the astonishing dishonesty – he deliberately fails to address why he narrated the position of Maturidi’s from a 1970’s avowedly Salafi scholar’s book. As I have hopefully made clear – Salafis are modernists – 1400 years of learning and tradition go in the bin for the rants of their latter day 20th century scholars – yet Salafis decry ‘modernists’. That’s like a lesbian calling a gay man ‘homosexual’ in a derogatory manner.
3) Abu Bakr is stating that “there is a narration which they have mentioned which is not permissible, so I left it.” Who is they? And what is not permissible? If it’s because of what I have already mentioned, then Ahl us Sunna have already clarified the boundaries of magic with Qur’an and Hadith.
4) This has been addressed previously.
5) you are know only attempting to refute me because I quoted from ‘Adhwaa Bayaan’. This has not refuted my case about the sentence you are trying to refute here. Very academic indeed Sulaiman….
Notice the true colours of the alleged Hanafi authority here: he is crying foul because he has been criticised for narrating from Wahhabi scholars. He sees no issue with narrating the position of Maturidi through those who label him a heretic and are the antithesis of his theology. As I mentioned at the beginning, that is the whole game of Salafism: narrate the position of the classical schools falsely through the mouths of Wahhabi scholars for the purpose of appropriating the authority and following of the classical schools for their own nefarious modernism and heresy.
It is exactly the same as someone arguing that we should ask Martin Luther what the position of the Pope was on a particular matter.
6) I accept what the narration says. However it was, it was just like an illness which came upon him ﷺ and then he ﷺ was cured by Allah.
Remember, the narration in question asserts that the Prophet lost his mind and didn’t know what he was doing and became impotent. Perhaps for a period of three months. He is ashamed to say that he accepts this. This is a good thing.
7) again, Abu Mansoor states three opinions why these Surahs were revealed and the third he said is because he ﷺ was affected by magic. He does that take this stance for the reason of revelation but he does not reject the fact anywhere in that text that he rejects magic. He has only rejected that this was the reason for revelation.
8) I will struggle? Read again and look at the narrators and the hukm [command] given.
9) Abu mansoor has said that they are oppressors because they knew he was not crazy and not affected my magic and they said this to him and related to him whatever they did regarding magic and loss of mind and this is not the case.
I have mentioned what the mushrikeen did and how this relates to them and it’s context. You are now creating a new addition from your own mind and putting that Hadith into this where there is no correlation apart from the word. Look at the previous lines before he underlined part which says,
“They conspired between themselves that he is affected my magic and he is crazy and he is a sorcerer. Then Allah informed His Prophet ﷺ what they were hiding and conspiring in order to guide them to his message and for them to know that he ﷺ knows what has been conspired by Allah.”
Finally, in desperation, he is offering a translation. Why not start in this manner instead of offering untranslated technical terms to show his ‘scholarly’ credentials?
10) the principle stands and you are rejecting it based on Intellect and no textual evidence which is no hujjah zahirah at all. If you reject principles of usool and logic, what basis at you talking from?!?!?
I just want readers to note Wahhabi stupidity: in the first sentence he accuses Ahmad of rejecting a principle based on his use of intellect. He then, in the very next sentence chastises him for rejecting and not using ‘epistemology and logic’ i.e intellect. This is simply moronic but is in fact the style Wahhabis employ while debating non-Muslims, in which case they apply ‘science and logic’, which they promptly forget when it comes to hadith, which are to be judged on ‘chain only’, unless of course they wish to show us where clashing with reality or observation was a criteria for rejection of hadith. The inconsistency is galling and would put off any prospective ‘religious shopper’
Sulaiman Ahmed, not in one place have you academically refuted my argument against you. Rather you sit there and just curse one man after another and at the same time reject these trustworthy narrators. Did you know in fiqh to to ta’n (accuse) to a trustworthy person (‘adl) you need your hujjah zahirah otherwise you get whipped? You are doing ta’n to a great number of them such as Sufyan b. ‘Uyaynah, Sufyan ath-thawri, [these were hadith scholars who showed great enmity to Hanafites – recall that it is the Hanafi position that is being debated here, yet these people are being brought as ‘reliable witnesses’ – note the complete subterfuge; MJ is very obviously from the outset a Salafi posing as a Hanafi] Ibn Namir etc.
Violence threatened in a cowardly and veiled way – ‘you deserve to be whipped etc’. Salafi 101 again and more proof if it was needed that despite their denials, ISIS is an authentic ”Islamic State” – as far as Wahhabis go anyway
Imam Malik also rejected the fact that Awais Al-Qarni existed and this is in Sahih Muslim?!?!? The ‘ulama understand his to be that this Hadith with that chain didn’t reach him when he said that and then later on when his was related to him with the chain he did accept this.
So my argument as before still stands, where does Abu mansoor reject the Hadith of magic? (The answer is nowhere because he doesn’t and I have explained what he is rejecting. You are taking a snippet out of its context and then you accuse others of this. Have some dignity!). If the public don’t believe me, please take that copy to any learned scholar and ask them to explain it to you and if they said opposite to what i have said, let me know.
Since you cannot prove Abu mansoor said it, I ask you to prove how you make takhsees (specify) the verse that you quote “Allah will protect you from mankind” to only this Hadith and magic. Where is the evidence to say it is only for that and not any other harm? As you know, takhsees needs evidence otherwise the verse remains ‘aam (general) so it should mean no harm will come to him ﷺ in any form but it is known he ﷺ had rotten meat thrown on him and had stones thrown at him in ta’if and his ﷺ upper garment pulled such that it left a mark on his ﷺ blessed neck, may my mother and father be sacrificed for him ﷺ.
I love how he has suddenly decided to start translating technical terms! Bit late in the game. Notice the overly dramatic and unacademic offers to sacrifice his mum and dad for the Prophet. This is the kind of nonsense which makes the irreligious look down their nose at Muslim scholars.
If you have no script evidence for takhsees, then you only have the intellect to do takhsees. And you doing takhsees on a matter by YOUR intellect against Ahl us Sunna which you see to be the case which is totally flawed.
Note the famously inconsistent position on the intellect of not only Wahhabis but also Muslim scholars in general. He has variously chastised Ahmed for using it and not using it. Here we have anew bastardisation: He is accusing Ahmed of using his intellect instead of that of ‘Ahlus Sunnah‘. Leaving aside the impossibility of using anyone else’s intellect or indeed other mental components, this is just argument from authority and indeed, we saw who he means by ‘Ahlus Sunnah‘ – a Wahhabi and a couple of name-dropped Muhaditheen (Ibn Hajar and Ibn Salah)
Block me if you wish, but I hope the public can see the lies and deceit you guys are putting on the public platform and attempting to lead people astray.
Not once, and the public and academics can see, have you actually refuted my argument with textual evidence or support. You have just picked a name and decided to curse him and then use that against me throughout this whole thing.
جاء الحق و زهق الباطل. أن الباطل كان زهوقا
Allah says, “Truth has come and falsehood has perished. Indeed, falsehood is bound to be perished.”
The abuse of both Quran and hadith to insult ones opponent and play to the gallery is disgustingly common in encounters with Wahhabites.
That is the nature of these false claims which is in reality your opinion and Shaykh Atabek, not the Hanafi madhab.
This is very fresh coming from someone who demands that Hanafi madhab be taken from Salafis, Muhaditheen, Shafis, Hanbalis…in short, anyone but Hanafis!
And if you want more chains of that Hadith, Ibn Hajar [another muhaddith from the rival Shafi/A’shari school] in ‘Fath Al-Bari’ goes into significant detail about the turuq and different chains [just above he treated us to a lengthy passage about all the different chains of the hadith – but now when exposed that all of these amount to just one chain, he abstains from quoting again and merely tells us to ‘look it up’. So why not present the ‘different’ chains in his original one page post on ‘chains’ (plural) which was in fact just one chain? The answer is simple and ells you a lot about Muslim scholars – he assumes you can’t look it up in Arabic]
Be aware of these scholars, some of whom (the first two only) are indeed top scholars, that Salafis almost exclusively rely on: Ibn Hajar, Ibn Salah, Albani, Ibn Taymiyya, Ibn Qayyum, Uthaymeen and Ibn Baz. Most other they mention will be intimately connected to these. The Deoband school add Gangohi and the Thanwi’s amongst others. It always comes back to these very latter day guys. Presumably Islam did not exist until they came along, much like how Orientalists such as Tom Holland (too stupid to even be called an orientalist) assert.
SA: Wow. I don’t know what to say. I did in fact expect such a weak response without any research, academia and unscientific as your Shaykh Samir an-Nass calls it, but I was hoping for more. Sad times. In your post all you did was try to insult and rather than answer any of the points and in fact what frustrates me is that I wasted my time with someone who did not have the calibre nor the academic honesty to address this issue. The remaining responses from your side should be from Shaykh Samir an-Nass himself. At least, I hope, there will be a better and on point response.
1) Issue of ‘Qeela’ being ‘Seeghat al-Tamreedh’ NOT ADDRESSED
2) I quoted two mujtahid Mufassirs, you quoted your Salafi imam. I asked for mujtahid Mufassirs on your side. NOT ADDRESSED
3) Abu Bakr is stating that “there is a narration which they have mentioned which is not permissible, so I left it.” Who is they? And what is not permissible?
Rest of your statement is assumption. So we don’t know which position Abu Bakr al-Assam was in fact rejecting. How have you made this magical assumption? NOT ADDRESSED
4) After ‘LAKIN’ it says ‘QEELA‘, still NOT ADDRESSED
Ahmed still hasn’t realised the banality of the game being played against him: he simply is too inexperienced and naive to appreciate that the whole gambit of the Salafists rests on simply mistranslating the word ‘Qeela‘ refusing to admit that it is a sort of prefix which denies what comes after it (in its scholarly use by Muslims). He does not realise that the whole charade is about denying that ‘Qeela’ is used to reject something. He is soon to be disabused of his naiveté.
5) Did not answer if magic happened twice or once and why your points are contradictory. NOT ADDRESSED
6) You accept narration that the Prophet lost his mind but then have not shown why you contradictorily reject this and say it was an illness, and when you accept the Hadith in Bukhari why you are contradicting the books of aqeedah. NOT ADDRESSED
7) You accept the Hadith in Bukhari about the Prophet losing his mind. In the Hadith it does not say he had an illness. Where on earth did you get this information from? Again, NOT ADDRESSED
8) NOT ADDRESSED
9) “They conspired between themselves that he is affected by magic and he is crazy (lost his mind) and he is a sorcerer. Then Allah informed His Prophet ﷺ what they were hiding and conspiring in order to guide them to his message and for them to know that he ﷺ knows what has been conspired by Allah.”
The verse of the Quran matches up nicely with your views.
10) Saying the Prophet has lost his mind is ‘batil’ [iniquitous falsehood]
11) Imam Malik not knowing a) something exists and b) rejecting a Hadith and nonetheless placing it in his collection for illustration that he dares to reject it are in fact two different things. NOT ADDRESSED
12) The Question you ask about ‘Thasees’, there is an easy answer that a student who learns one basic book inUsul [epistemology] can answer and I will also address this once you do what I said.
At least Ahmed is not naive enough to jump from point to point as the Salafis would like him to do.
13) “That is the nature of these false claims which is in reality your opinion and Shaykh Atabek, not the Hanafi madhab”
No brother with my claim I have two giant Mufusareen [Quranic commentators] that the reason for revelation was not magic but instead was to teach.
On your side you have shown only a Salafist imam and if you work hard, which you didn’t, you may find opinions ofMuqaallids.
In reality what it is that you are doing is forcing impotence on the Prophet so it matches up with your Salafi-Deobandi version of Islam. You can have that version of Islam but please don’t make it look like it is the original Hanafi position. We’ve seen this in arguments before where the Prophet (PBUH) is made lower than other creatures. I’m not being sectarian – people can follow any sect they wish but your slander needs to be addressed. In reality, the Deobandi and Salafist Muslims have been fixated with these Hadith to denigrate the Prophet (PBUH) and have influenced everyone. But now some do Mawlids [this is a celebration of the Prophet’s birthday and is hated by puritanical groups like the Wahhabis, Salafis, Deobandis etc]. I don’t accept this version of Islam.
You then quoted erroneous and emotional tripe about ‘truth coming’, this is why you were not given ijaza [permission to teach or the equivalent of a diploma or certificate of competence] by Shaykh Atabek in aqeedah [creed] andtajweed [Arabic pronunciation]. He was most likely concerned that you would place your Salafist-Deobandi version of Islam on it. Like I said, I have no problem with your sect but don’t make it out as though it is the position of the Hanafi giants of this ummah, who actually respected the Prophet (PBUH).
Back on point, you haven’t taken the time to address anything. I’m not being horrible but the rules to discussion are that you’re well versed in the field you are discussing and that does not mean collecting ijazas but studying intensively. So it means strong knowledge in Hanafi Usul, Hanafi and Shafi Mustalah, terminologies used by scholars, Hanafi Fiqh [jurispudence], Maturidi and Ashari aqeedah for this issue. I’m not confident based on the discussion you have expertise on this issue. I had many more points to make but my initial ones weren’t even addressed.
Brother, don’t take this personally. But as you have not addressed anything at all, I want you instead to relieve yourself, and take my points to your teacher, Shaykh Samir an-Nass [a famous ‘Hanafi’ scholar from Syria who is basically a Salafi] and let him address them. I hope his arguments will be on point and he will address each issue and will understand the points I have made and we can continue discussing this issue. Please don’t waste our time with a response that even a beginner student can make.
So your next post should be from Shaykh Samir an-Nass.
MJ: You haven’t read a word of what I have said. You claim to be behind Abu Mansoor when he doesn’t even mention what you say. So you don’t have a mujtahid. I’m not standing behind a salafi. Ibn Kathir mentions this in Surah Falaq tafsir with his chain, if only you read what I wrote.
Hilariously, Ibn Kathir is another ”go to” Imam of the Salafis: he is in fact well known for narrating anthropomorphisms and is a student of Salafi archfiend Ibn Taymiyya – next to whom he is buried. In any case, literally no one accepts Ibn Kathir as an Imam of Creed nor is he in any way qualified to challenge the opinion of Maturidi, even according to his not inconsiderable fan club. He is also, as per Salafist protocol, very late (after Ibn Taymiyya and so 15th century onwards)
I’m sorry Sulaiman. But you have shown no light of knowledge at all. Allah help you and all those that are falling for this.
I have told you the that hujjah [proof] is upon the muda’i (the claimer). You have your claim and it was flawed. So Abu Mansoor is not on your side. Abu Bakr opinion is not taken by Abu Mansoor. So at the moment you are behind a Mu’tazilte [the hated enemies of Muhaditheen and Salafis and the go to guys when trying to accuse someone of heresy. Salafist groups and sadly most A’sharis as well, condition their students from childhood to imagine the rationalist Mu’tazzila as the worst things ever, whereas the barbaric violent Khawarij, who ironically were also rationalists and hadith rejecters are given a ”pass”. We will ignore the foolishness of narrating hadith from people who don’t recognise the validity of hadith – namely the Khawarij] opinion. That’s your standing. And oh yeah, your own whim and intellect.
You see to try and respect the Prophet ﷺ, when in fact you disrespect his inheritors and disrespect him ﷺ.
Anybody who understands what I have written will know that you have addressed nothing and you have no leg to stand on. Abu Mansoor, Rahim Ullah, is free from your claims.
Salafist- Deobandi Islam? Name calling again and another conclusion from nothing. You can even make takhsees of my approach based on your intellect of putting snippets together and here we have a Salafist-Deobandi? Nice usool.
Anyway, it’s clear you don’t want to discuss academically. I leave you to know that Abu Mansoor does not support you and you are behind a mu’tazilte opinion. That is what we have gathered already.
Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmat Ullahi wa barakaatoh.
Again, notice the typical Salafi Latin drama antics and the accusations of name calling…while himself name calling. Also notice the vile ‘Salafi Sin’ of not admitting that one is a Salafi – nor does he deny it though.
SA: You have not addressed one point. I even numbered them to make it easy for you. Please take them to your shaykh. I expect a better response after the time I have taken.
You keep saying I’m behind the Mutazalite Abu Bakr Al-Assam’s opinion yet you yourself established that we didn’t know his opinion. Complete dishonesty and frankly, deception and lying.
In reality at that time Hashwis (Salafists equivalents in the classical period), hated all Hanafis and called them‘Mutazalite’. Even Abu Hanifa was called Mutazalite as he didn’t adhere to your Salafist version of Islam.
We have here an important point for the uninitiated: Muslims who are educated in or exposed to Deo-Salafi mosques or teachers are taught from an early age that Imam Ahmad was subjected to imprisonment and torture by the Mu’tazzilites under the reign of Caliph Ma’moun (or his successor). However, as has been made abundantly clear by orientalists and genuine scholars, this is half a story. Ahmad was imprisoned for maybe 18 moths or perhaps much less. He was not executed (unlike Malik and Abu Hanfia who were assassinated). After the time of the ‘minha‘ which was the inquisition up to assert whether Muslim scholars believed in the created-ness of the Quran (of which Ahmad fell foul since his position was that the Quran is uncreated in its written and recited form – incidentally, the wrong position, though students are never told this), which frankly was rather mild as seen by Imam Ahmad’s survival, there was a counter inquisition by the Muhaditheen and Hanbali mobs which led to the murder of countless Hanafites and Mu’tazillites – Ahmed has cottoned on to the fact that when Muhaditheen of old are talking about ‘mutazzilites’, they in fact mean all of their enemies, particularly Hanafis. The elevation of Imam Ahmad’s trial and the wilful ignorance of the genocide of his opponents that followed it (recently displayed by Jonathan AC Brown, a crypto-Salafist himself) is a standard trope of Deo-Salafists as they find it expedient to support the Muhaditheen and Salafis against the Hanafites, more galling in the Deobandi case given they claim to be Hanafis themselves.
In reality you have shown you are with the Salafist-Deobandi version of Islam. Ibn Kathir [as mentioned, a Quranic commentator again, inclined against Hanafis and a student of Salafi arch-fiend Ibn Taymiyyah] is a muqallid (you do know what that means right?).
‘Respecting knowledge’ is in fact tackling issues that you have studied intensively. So are you an expert in the Hanafi/Shafi school? From this discussion it seems neither.
If you are not addressing this academically and on point and are not able to analyse the points I have made, as you don’t know basic terminologies then at least look at it from the position of how disgusting your view is:
The Prophet (PBUH) is impotent is your position, and as related by Qadi Iyad [a Maliki jurist highly regarded, but again, a partisan of hadith and advocate of ignoring Maliki hadith methodology in favour of accepting reports willy-nilly] this was for one whole year, would you say the same about your own father or yourself? Disgusting.
The Prophet Muhammad lost his mind and didn’t know when he was having sex. Disgusting.
The Prophet Muhammad would approach his wife and he would become ‘limp’ as Qadi Iyad said. Disgusting.
These are what you mean by ‘physical illness’ which you convoluted yourself.
Indeed, Salafis often play to the gallery – MJ asserted the Prophet was suffering from physical illnesses, after the assertions of previous scholars such as Iyad – but he deliberately omitted what these ailments were, and they were indeed most foul, for the sake of masking the real difficulties with the ”gotta accept them all’ approach to the narrations of Bukhari
But then you guys say we ‘respect’ the Prophet Muhammad when it is time for Mawlid. £££ (ca – ching!) £££ [a reference to the donations which are made by Muslims on the Prophet’s birthday]
Like I said take my point to your Shaykh, Samir al-Nass as I had many more proofs waiting. And when he responds, I will respond.
Samir An Naas is a famous scholar and senior of MJ. He also claims to be a Hanafite but is indistinguishable form a Salafist.
I’m disappointed because unlike Shaykh Atabek, who knows nearly all of this from the top of his head, it takes me a long time to research, to make sure the point I narrate is relevant to the point, is strong, has basis and refutes the point of the other person. When this is not reciprocated, then it is terribly disappointing.
This shows how foolish Ahmed is – he is unaware of the epic time wasting strategies of Salafis. We saw this repeatedly on this site where they would refuse to translate, demand proofs and when proffered, would disengage.
MJ: Hang on, I’m a salafi, do I celebrate mawlid? (According to you)
As you can see, you are no longer fit to debate. You tell people to study and say you have so many points. You haven’t made one at all to engage the discussion. You hide behind your status of ‘shaykh’ [teacher, scholar or literally ‘old man’] which you gained in how many years sorry? And then say I don’t have time and I have a lot more but I wait.
It would be interested to hear you read one line in Arabic correctly. For a while you guys in Avicenna used to call‘mustalah Hadith’ as ‘mustalal’…
Recall that MJ was complaining about ‘name calling’ previously. The ‘bad manners’ or adhab card is also inconsistently employed by all stripes of Islamic scholars.
This is the end of the so-called discussion.
I hope the public have seen your deceit and treachery. Hiding behind I could do this and that and not engage the points and rather just keep saying you don’t know this and don’t know that. Anybody with some idea, is aware of the points I made have basis in fiqh, usool and Hadith. And yours? Show me someone other than Avicenna who will give basis and backing to your approach and is not Mu’tazili.
If you didn’t get the idea from the get go, the game here is to repeatedly accuse Ahmed of being a Mu’tazzilte heretic, which the Muslims have suitably been conditioned to hate and switch off to for years.
Allah help you all.
SA: You have not addressed any of my points, since you know that they don’t match with your Salafi-Deobandi version of Islam. Hence why you hate the Hanafi way.
What made you ‘shaykh’ is that you happened to be born in Iran and as such can speak Arabic. I’m afraid, like many other claiming to be Sheikhs, that’s it. According to you Prophet is impotent and yet you want to celebrate hisMawlid. Odd.
It is sad that it takes Ahmed this long to realise that the only ‘knowledge’ that 90% of Muslim scholars have is the ability to read Arabic. If they even come across a layman with a little bit of knowledge and the ability to read Arabic they are nixed. That’s the whole game. It is also why Salafis immediately start teaching their adepts Arabic (poorly). To impress on the poor Muslims that they have ‘knowledge’. It is just as how some people in the Developing world lionise anyone who can speak English.
Look the last few posts – we are needlessly posting against each other.
Ask Shaykh Samir to respond to each numbered point I made with references and proof. If he does, then he has proven his point. If not, I have proven mine.
MJ: I am salafi but yet I celebrate mawlid according to you? I hate the Hanafi way? Some teachers of mine are Hanafi and senior Hanafi scholars.
So I was born in Iran and I speak Arabic and it makes me shaykh? Strange deduction again.
This discussion was over a long time ago. You must bring your evidence forth for you to reject Bukhari and it must be clear evidence. Abu Mansoor text is not supporting you. If Abu Bakr is all you have, then that has been flawed already. So what’s left? Your opinion based in your intellect and I think this is what you were getting at before where you feel you can do takhsees of that verse with your opinion and reach this conclusion and then remove the Nass.
Remember that a clear text right at the start where Imam Abu Mansooor Maturidi clearly says that he rejects the narrations of Bukhari (which had not been compiled then) where the Prophet Muhammad is affected by Black Magic? But MJ keeps pretending that this has not happened, or that the text does not exist. Once again, he is banking on showmanship to trump scholarship and on you not knowing Arabic or the meanings of the words ”qeela” and ‘lakin‘. It is just shocking and why I felt that readers have to see the depths that so – called Islamic scholars will go to for the ends of misleading people. They are no less than the most cunning baptist ministers.
Do not bring shaykh samir’s name into this conversation. If he wants to deal with you, he will. He already has dealt with you on that video, but if you want to bring this nonsense to him, then it is up to him how he wants to deal with you guys, May Allah Preserve him.
SA: If you are slandering me, I am okay with it but It is funny how you keep saying ‘you guys’. Don’t show any respect to your own teacher Shaykh Atabek? You have learnt and studied from him, grovelled for Ijaza [permission to teach], which was refused and then you insult him publicly. Is this you version of ‘Prophetic Knowledge’? Have a bit of shame.
If you post again without addressing the point I will keep posting the points that were not addressed. You can consult with Shaykh Samir and bring evidence to answer the question.
1) Issue of Qeela being Seeghat al-Tamreedh NOT ADDRESSED
2) I quoted two mujtahid Mufassirs [senior-most commentators on the Quran], you quoted your Salafi imam. I asked for mujtahid Mufassirs from your side. NOT ADDRESSED
3) Abu Bakr is stating that “there is a narration which they have mentioned which is not permissible, so I left it.” Who are ‘they’? And what is not permissible?
The rest of your statement is assumption. So we don’t know which position Abu Bakr al-Assam was in fact rejecting. How have you made the magic assumption? NOT ADDRESSED
4) After ‘LAKIN’ it says ‘QEELA’, still NOT ADDRESSED
5) You did not answer whether magic happened twice or once and why your points are contradictory. NOT ADDRESSED
6) You ‘accept’ narration that the Prophet lost his mind but then have not shown why you actually reject this and say it was an illness and why when you accept the Hadith in Bukhari why you are at the same time contradicting the books of aqeedah [creed]. NOT ADDRESSED
7) You accept the Hadith in Bukhari about the Prophet losing his mind. In the Hadith it does not say he had an ‘illness’. Where did you get that from? Again NOT ADDRESSED
8) NOT ADDRESSED
9) “They conspired between themselves that he is affected my magic and he is crazy (lost his mind) and he is a sorcerer. Then Allah informed His Prophet ﷺ what they were hiding and conspiring in order to guide them to his message and for them to know that he ﷺ knows what has been conspired by Allah.”
The verse of the Quran matches up nicely with your views.
10) Saying the Prophet has lost his mind is batil [false]
11) Imam Malik not knowing something exists and rejecting Hadith and placing it in his collection are two different things. NOT ADDRESSED
12) The Question you ask about Thasees, there is an easy answer that a student who learns one basic book inUsul [epistemic or juristic principles] can answer – and I will also address this, once you do what I said.
If these points a unequivocally refuted then my position is refuted.
Until then however, I have proven that Shaykh Abu Mansoor rejected that the verses were revealed due to the Prophet (PBUH) being affected by Black Magic. So I say Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi was rejecting the black magic on the Prophet (PBUH).
When scholars use the word “Qeela” it is “Seeghat al-Tamreedh“.
What is “Seeghat Al-Tamreedh“?
MJ: How Maturidi uses lakn and qila can be seen in other places. Like:
(2.a) Maturidi said,
وقوله: (فِي الصور) قيل الصور هو القرن ينفخ فيه النفخة الأولى فيصعق من في السماوات ومن في الأرض إلا من شاء اللَّه، ثم ينفخ فيه مرة فإذا هم قيام ينظرون. ومنهم من يقول أي نفخ الروح في صور الخلق؛ لكن جمع الصورة الصور، بنصب الواو فلا يحتمل أن يكون المراد منه جمع الصورة
ومنهم من ذكر أن الكافور شيء جرى ذكره في الكتب المتقدمة فذكر كذلك في القرآن. ومنهم من قال إنه عين من عيون الجنة. ومنهم من صرفه إلى الكافور المعروف. لكن قيل إنه كناية عن طيب الشراب وقيل إنه كناية عن برودة الشراب لأنه ذكر أن ذلك الشراب في طبعه كالكافور لأن ألذ الشراب عند الناس البارد منه لا أن يكون في نفسه باردا وذكروا أن الكأس لا تسمى كأسا حتى يكون فيها خمر.
قيل فيه بوجهين وإلا فظاهر القصاص لا يكون حياة، لكن قيل من تفكره في نفسه قتلها إذا قتل آخر ارتدع عن قتله، فتحيا النفسان جميعا.
MJ: Also, Naysaburi makes basically the same point as Sahib Adwa’ al-Bayan:
وقال جمهور المفسرين إن لبيد بن الأعصم اليهودي سحر النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في إحدى عشرة عقدة في وتر ودسه في بئر ذي أروان فمرض النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم واشتد ذلك عليه ثلاث ليال فنزلت المعوذتان وأخبره جبرائيل بموضع السحر فأرسل عليا بطلبه وجاء به وقال جبرائيل اقرأ السورتين فكان كلما يقرأ آية تنحل عقدة فيجد بعض الراحة والخفة حتى إذا أتمهما فكأنما أنشط من عقال. طعنت المعتزلة في هذه الرواية بأنها توجب تسلط الكفار والأشرار على الأنبياء.
MJ: From Tafsir al-Qurtubi,
مَعَ اتِّفَاقِ الْمُفَسِّرِينَ عَلَى أَنَّ سَبَبَ نُزُولِهَا مَا كَانَ مِنْ سِحْرِ لَبِيَدِ بْنِ الْأَعْصَمِ، وَهُوَ مِمَّا خَرَّجَهُ الْبُخَارِيُّ وَمُسْلِمٌ وَغَيْرُهُمَا عَنْ عَائِشَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا قَالَتْ: سَحَرَ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ يَهُودِيٌّ مِنْ يَهُودِ بَنِي زُرَيْقٍ يُقَالُ لَهُ لَبِيَدُ بْنُ الْأَعْصَمِ، الْحَدِيثَ. وَفِيهِ: أَنَّ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ لَمَّا حُلَّ السِّحْرِ: (إِنَّ اللَّهَ شَفَانِي). وَالشِّفَاءُ إِنَّمَا يَكُونُ بِرَفْعِ الْعِلَّةِ وَزَوَالِ الْمَرَضِ، فَدَلَّ عَلَى أَنَّ لَهُ حَقًّا وَحَقِيقَةً، فَهُوَ مَقْطُوعٌ بِهِ بِإِخْبَارِ اللَّهِ تَعَالَى وَرَسُولُهُ عَلَى وُجُودِهِ وَوُقُوعِهِ. وَعَلَى هَذَا أَهْلُ الْحَلِّ وَالْعَقْدِ الَّذِينَ يَنْعَقِدُ بِهِمُ الْإِجْمَاعُ، وَلَا عِبْرَةَ مَعَ اتِّفَاقِهِمْ بِحُثَالَةِ الْمُعْتَزِلَةِ وَمُخَالَفَتِهِمْ أَهْلَ الْحَقِّ.
[none translated – and two of them are from A’sharis, which is a creed already accepting that the Prophet was affected by Black Magic – and this is not even under discussion – the issue is what did Maturidi say, since he disagrees with A’sharis on this. Nonetheless, notice the shocking dishonesty of Muslim scholars – bringing A’sharites as untranslated Arabic proofs of the Maturidi position. It’s like narrating form a Democrat and saying ‘this is the Republican position’].
He is again banking on your ability not to read Arabic – Arabic readers note that Maturidi is again using ‘qeela‘ to reject what comes after – MJ is simply to dishonest or foolish to understand this as he cannot fathom or allow you to see that Maturidi disagrees with Bukhari.
Finally, MJ gets to the point. But why was this not brought before? Remember, Muslims scholars, like hyenas, usually hunt in packs. He is no doubt being helped by his partisans such as Samir An Naas. See how we suddenly have ‘new’ evidence. It would have been useful to have this from the start.
SZH: Although The hadith of Prophet (صل الله عليه وسلم) being affected by magic is narrated by Bukhari, ibn sa’d but as per the Usool hadith, ”Riwayatan” this hadith is weak
-As per the Hadith 5765 of Bukhari ‘The comb and hairs etc were taken out from the well’ BUT at the same time, as per the hadith 5766 of Bukhari ‘these things were NOT taken out of the well’
-as per hadith 5765 of Bukhari due to magic Prophet (صل الله عليه وسلم) would think he had done a work but actually he wouldn’t have done it’.
-as per hadith from Tabaqat of Ibn Sa’d vol 2 page 152
‘due to magic Prophet (صل الله عليه وسلم) when he looked at anything he would think it any other thing’ i.e his eyesight was affected.
-as per Hadith 19765 from Musannaf Abdr Razaq ‘Prophet (صل الله عليه وسلم) became impotent (العياذ بالله) for ONE year
-As per Hadith of ibn Sa’d vol 2 page 153, when 11 verse (of al-Falq and al-Naas [chapters of the Quran]) were recited, the threads/knots would open (from the thing on which magic spell was made)…but HERE it should be noted that These Suras are ‘Makki’ [Meccan period] whereas the magic incident is ‘Madni’ [Madinan period, i./e later in the Prophets life]
So as per Muhadiseen this Hadith is مضطرب
Similarly it opposes the Quran
ولا يفلح الساحر حيث اتی
‘…. and wherever a magician may come, he will not be successful.’
Sura Taha verse 69.
So that is why it is best to reject this hadith.
Similarly the incident of Magic is narrated to be done after the Treaty of Hudaybia, and in that year the Prophet (صل الله عليه وسلم) was busy in achieving victory in many battles and many other things but this narration says that his mind/body/eyesight was affected. So it is not possible for a person who is affected by magic on mind/body to do these lots of victories.
MJ: I think you will find that if you read some tafsir books and Hadith books that this is not the case. Please reference the book you are quoting from when you say the Hadith is mudhtarib. Jazak Allahu khayra.
But this new interloper, yet another Muslim scholar, already explained it and gave the reasons for weakness. Instead of addressing the complaints against the hadith, he wants the book from which the interloper derived the complaints. Textualist when it suits, rationalist when it suits…
SA: Shaykh Syed Zahid Hussain, thank you for taking your time to being evidence about the weakness of the chains regarding point 7, from what I know you are Hanafi and well versed in the Hanafi school and as such your input will add only benefit to this thread.
But I want to take 1 point at a time. Because posting a lot of things causes too much dust and the issue is lost.
MJ, lets both of us keep on point and not take snipes at each other, even with back handed comments. Let’s bring honesty to the discussion.
1) You bought some texts from Asharis [theological group, related closely to the party of hadith], when I already that they believe in the sexual impotence of the Prophet. In terms of the Maturidi text you bought we can discuss that issue in a different thread BUT you still haven’t answered the question:
When scholars use the word “Qeela” it is “Seeghat Al-Tamreedh“
Ahmed has finally cottoned on to the ruse (very late in the game) – Salafis wish to deny that ‘qeela‘ is ‘seeghat altamreedh‘- namely, a way of rejecting what follows the word ‘qeela‘. By denying that this is the case, Salafis can literally make ‘no’ into ‘yes’ and completely re-write all of Islamic scholarship.
Don’t believe me? Then keep reading.
What is ‘Seegah Al-Tamreedh‘?
Please answer this question as this is where we are disagreeing. I am saying Imam Maturidi is rejecting the hadith and you’re saying he is not.
Please let’s stay on topic.
When scholars use the word “Qeela” it is “Seeghat Al-Tamreedh“
What is ‘Seegah Al-Tamreedh‘?
RP: Please continue Shaykh Sulaiman…the proofs have been very convincing thus far and furthermore you are doing a great spiritual service to the honour of the Prophet by bringing to bear scholarly arguments, the very lack of which are the basis for well meaning supporters of the Prophets isma being maligned as opposers of the authentic traditions. Your task is in its very nature noble and the opposition’s can only be miserable.
Finally, someone intercedes on behalf of the Prophet. And it only took about 20 pages.
MJ: Here is Tahawi in Sharh Mushkil Athaar (vol 15 pg 180) speaking about magic. This is the narration of Zayd b. Arqam which states that the Prophet ﷺ was affected by magic by one of the Jews and the Falaq and naas were revealed.
This is the page preceding that which is the narration of ‘Aishah
This is what Tahawi said in conclusion to these two narrations,“Both of these narrations indicate that the action of magic did remain to the time where the Messenger of Allah ﷺ was affected by magic. So if it can remain until then, it can continue also after that.”
See how he doesn’t want to address the issue about the word ‘qeela‘ denoting rejection?
And why are we talking about Tahawi when the discussion was about Maturidi? Games and name dropping. Jumping from point to point is a strategy of all dishonest people but is typified in Muslims by Salafists
SA: Please answer the question I have asked numerous times, I will then deal with the issues you have presented. What is ‘Seegah Al-Tamreedh‘? Please answer this question as this is where we are disagreeing. I am saying Imam Maturidi is rejecting the hadith and you’re saying he is not. Please let’s stay on topic. When scholars use the word “Qeela” it is “Seeghat Al-Tamreedh“. What is ‘Seegah Al-Tamreedh‘?
MJ: Seegah at-Tamreedh is used generally to indicate that this is not the reliable position. However context is important and not always does ‘qeela’ mean it is weak. Regardless, when he said, “However, according to us from what has been said (fi ma qeel) the Prophet ﷺ was affected by magic” and then explained it in two ways. He said qeela in all the other ones as well except the teaching. So at the end he has confirmed that his opinion FOR THE REASON OF REVELATION was the first to teach. Again, I repeat myself, he has not rejected magic being done to the Messenger of Allah ﷺ. He has rejected that this was the reason for why these two chapters were revealed. I have previously addressed every point. And anybody that has objective thinking will be aware of that.
You are welcome to discuss this with me in Sheffield in my house. I am no longer going to be involving myself in this debate as I have answered all that you need from before.
Lets see if he sticks to this and stops inflicting his lies on the public – he is now saying something brand new that ‘qeela‘ does not always mean that what comes after it is rejected. Prepare for Salafis to literally throw classical Islam in the bin and then assert that they are combating ”modernists”. Note that he is still trying his fall back position that Maturidi is rejecting that the reason for revelation is magic – but he wants a separate place where Maturidi says it did not happen at all. And we are to accept that in the absence of this, Maturidi did accept that black magic took place on the Prophet Muhammed – the reason is that Bukhari says so and no one is allowed to disagree with him, even Hanafis like Maturidi who do indeed completely disagree with the later scholar and non-Hanafi.
Notice that Maturidi unambiguously rejected the hadith that MJ is claiming was not rejected. Once again, he is banking on a western audience and Arabs with no knowledge of scholarly terminologies, or else his deception is woefully poor.
YA: I asked another Shaykh on, and he said qeela doesn’t always mean the weak opinion but can be one that is less known but stronger? Is this correct?
MJ: Yes sidi Yusuf. It depends on the context. And I have mentioned a big Hanafi imam at-Tahawi that affirms these Hadith [but no one was talking about Hanafi imams but the meaning of ‘qeela‘ – Tahawi never affirmed that qeelameans anything other than weak, as MJ well knows. And as for affirming the hadith, the issue is what Maturidi believes about it, not Tahawi. It is the same as me asking you what Obama’s position on the Iraq war is and you start talking about John Kerry instead].
SA: Sidi Yusuf, your teacher is incorrect, please check my post and also the ramifications of such a statement. Jazakallah Sidi
The game is afoot – ‘qeela‘ does not mean to reject what comes after according to the innovation of Salafists. With this MJ can turn all of the times that Muslims scholars said ”rejected’ to ”accepted”. Notice how no reference is given for what qeela means yet – SA is clearly too shocked at someone trying to argue, like a rapist, that ‘no’ means ‘yes’ to appreciate the gravity of the situation. YA’s instructor is also clearly a Salafist – since for 1200 years, no Muslim scholar said that qeela is anything other than a means to reject the thing that comes after it.
YA: SA, he’s not actually my teacher but just a scholar. I read your posts and they seem to only relate to hadith being weak, not opinions.
They seem to be two different things altogether.
SA: ‘Seegha al-tamreedh’ is there in Hadith and other subjects such as usul, aqeeda, fiqh etc. Please check the quote from Ibn Abideen. It’s a big thing as our scholars use ‘Qeela‘ to reject Mujasssim [anthropomorphic] ideas, if you say it is not rejected then Sunni Islam is actually anthropomorphism.
YA: But with the Hadith it’s understandable as it’s attributing a saying to the Prophet ﷺ which may not he his speech. However when it comes to opinions, I am told that it could also refer to a lesser known opinion i.e. they use it as opposed to ‘jazm‘.
SA: No problem sidi. I’m not here to try to change your view, each person has their own opinion but as I showed Ibn Abideen explained it and he wasn’t talking about Hadith. Also, with your position you can not disagree with Salafists when they say the position of ‘Ahle Sunnah‘ is that God is Jism [a body] as the scholars use ‘Qeela‘ when explaining that they don’t accept this position.
Now Salafis and confused people such as YA are saying that qeela is used to reject hadith but in other contexts it can mean to not reject. This would be pretty weird anyway but SA refers to the opinion of Hanafi Hadith expert Ibn Abideen who clarifies the use of this word and makes it abundantly clear that it means to reject what comes after it whether a hadith or a scholars’ opinion. Note how brazen Salafis are in overturning the meaning of words that have stood unchanged for 1200 years – without so much as a reference!
YH: Copy and paste of what he said: “Also, the mutaqalimeen did not use qeela or ruwiya for tamreed. It was a later term. The earlier scholars would use qeela for things that Ahadith that were sahih according to themselves. It was only the later scholars who came up with the usage of seegha at-tamreed to indicate weakness.”
Would Abu Mansur RA be considered as the early scholars?
SA: Like I said, Ibn Abideen is accepted by all Hanafis and he was a later scholar. If the scholar has shown proof for his position then that’s fine. As we saw on this thread, picture and translate the proof, because cutting snippets never gives an honest idea of what is being presented by the scholar. But if this scholar holds this position then he needs to accept that the Salafi position is also right. He has to follow through on his own principle. God has hands, feet, shin, but not like ours according to him then.
Notice how MJ has to sit this one out – he is in a bind: he was claiming to be a Hanafi and not a Salafi, but he has contradicted an agreed upon Hanafi giant, Ibn Abideen, on the meaning of ‘qeela‘. So he will just hope no one notices. YH has been told that qeela used to mean ‘accept’ but was changed by later people to mean ‘reject’ – a clever inversion since it is in fact Salafis, a modernist group that have changed the meaning – but of course they can baselessly argue that they have in fact gone ‘back’ to the ‘real’ meaning – but sadly, since this is the same as arguing that ‘no’ means ‘yes’, they will not be able to find any source for their wish to do this – motivated, as Ahmed rightly divines, from their desire to take all of the books where Sunni scholars were refuting and denying anthropomorphsism and other Salafi heresies and turn these denials into acceptances (which would make no linguistic or contextual sense anyway). But that’s just how brazen they are.
YH: I will message him now. Again, please understand I’m only trying to understand myself and forgive if I sound disrespectful.
SA: Brother Yusuf it’s better that you start from the beginning as you didn’t even know who Imam Maturdi was, when explaining the ramification of your statements you may not understand it, as you haven’t looked into the background, so when I say Ibn Abideen, you may think, ‘so what’. But for others its like, Ibn Abideen saying something holds a lot of value. My sincere advice is if you already engaged in the Islamic field, it’s better to start at the beginning.
SA: No worries sidi I’m not offended
SA: This is the case with all sciences – Muslims have become the most dumbest creatures. So they don’t understand that if they are going to make a statement, they need to follow through with that statement as well as its consequences.
SA: Any other issues you can email me with evidence. As for me I’ve proven my position unequivocally.
MJ: I sent some examples before as well in Arabic where Abu Mansoor used ‘qeela‘ and its context clearly does not mean a weak position.
I like how he doesn’t want to refer to Ibn Abideen, as then the game would be up. Ahmed lets him get away with it. In those ‘examples’, Maturidi is, like everyone else ever, using qeela to reject that which comes after this word. But since MJ didn’t accept Maturidi’s use of this to reject the issue of black magic because he didn’t like it, there is no reason why he would do any differently in any other issue.
RP: It hasn’t ceased to shock me since I began reading about this issue here how much effort is being exerted to back up the claim that the Prophet (saw) was affected by sihr [often translated as ‘magic’]. Hearts should tremble at the possibility of such ijtehad [extrapolation] being incorrect and for what a scary position it is to defend. Anyone with an ounce of piety should pray that the truth be clearly manifest on the lips of Shaikh Sulaiman or anyone defending his position, as imam Shafii would say of his opponent in an argument, especially as this is a khilaaf [disagreed] issue and the safest camp and most noble camp to be in is Shaykh Sulaiman’s as his objectives are noble. Further, it’s hard to fault his methodology too.
Finally, another onlooker is forced to intercede for the Prophets reputation, attempted to be molested by Muslim scholars.
MJ: Just a final point, you have admitted in your post previously what my case was, and I quote you, “Until then I have proven that shaykh Abu Mansoor rejected that the verses WERE REVEALED DUE TO the Prophet ﷺ being affected by Black Magic. So this settles the debate, we agree that Abu Mansoor in this text you have bought has rejected that these two chapters were revealed because of that incident and not that he rejects that magic had occurred on the Prophet ﷺ. Alhamdu liLLAH.
You will see this type of self congratulatory behaviour from Muslim scholars when they think they have ‘won’. Unfortunately, they rarely have the brains to back their ego, as will soon become apparent. But how many well meaning laymen would have been fooled by now. Many I fear.
MJ: And you said,“No brother with my claim I have two giant mufasuareen that THE REASON FOR REVELATION was not magic but instead to teach.”
YH: Two giant mifasuareen? But what if 20 giant mufasuareen said otherwise?
MJ: The majority say it was revealed because of that incident but Abu Mansoor does not adopt this approach. This is a matter of difference of opinion regarding the reason of revelation and this difference is not an issue.
However, the scholars of Ahl us Sunna confirm the Hadith is sound and not rejected and as I have mentioned because they have mentioned how it can affect the Messenger of Allah ﷺ just like a fever as Ibn Hajar said.
YH: OK brother. But is it true that magic affected him ﷺ that he would be unsure if revelation came to him? Or was it only for worldly things?
MJ: I will translate what Imam Nawawi says in his commentary on Muslim about this and then also what Qadhi ‘Iyadh says when I get home Inshaa Allah.
No sayyidi. Magic cannot affect him in his mind ﷺ, nor in matters of revelation. I will translate a passage from imam Nawawi in Sahih Muslim which is clear and evident and understandable
SA: Here is a hadith in Bukhari about Black Magic:
Bukhari, Narrated ‘Aisha:
The Prophet continued for such-and-such period imagining that he has slept (had sexual relations) with his wives, and in fact he did not. One day he said, to me, “O ‘Aisha! Allah has instructed me regarding a matter about which I had asked Him. There came to me two men, one of them sat near my feet and the other near my head. The one near my feet, asked the one near my head (pointing at me), ‘What is wrong with this man? The latter replied, ‘He is under the effect of magic.’ The first one asked, ‘Who had worked magic on him?’ The other replied, ‘Lubaid bin Asam.’ The first one asked, ‘What material (did he use)?’ The other replied, ‘The skin of the pollen of a male date tree with a comb and the hair stuck to it, kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan.”‘ Then the Prophet went to that well and said, “This is the same well which was shown to me in the dream. The tops of its date-palm trees look like the heads of the devils, and its water looks like the Henna infusion.” Then the Prophet ordered that those things be taken out. I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Won’t you disclose (the magic object)?” The Prophet said, “Allah has cured me and I hate to circulate the evil among the people.” ‘Aisha added, “(The magician) Lubaid bin Asam was a man from Bani Zuraiq, an ally of the Jews.”
You say magic cannot affect the mind but the hadith says that he was imagining whole events occurring. So are you rejecting this part of the hadith. Shall we put a red mark over it and you choose that you will only accept the bit about magic and not that the Prophet (PBUH) lost control of his mind. Or is that you don’t accept but you don’t act on it?
How would one act upon it? Does everyone need to lose their mind?
SA: Imam Nawawi and Qadi Iyaad said that it was sexual impotence and for Qadi Iyad this was for a year. But the hadith says he lost his mind as he was imagining events occurring when they did not. So Qadi Iyad and Imam Nawawi are rejecting this hadith…I mean according to you, ”not acting upon it”. Please answer this and I will address the points you made last night
By the way this is the infamous hadith of Bukhari which MJ is using to call us heretics. So do you go with Qadi Iyaad and Imam Nawawi in rejecting this hadith and as such according to you we are all going to Hell together, for being heretics or do you reject their position and go with Bukhari that the Prophet (PBUH) lost his mind?
As you quoted from Maziri that only heretics rejected this hadith, so the list of heretics is increasing, you can now add:
And you will continue to add to it as you bring more statements of scholars saying the Prophet lost his mind.
So: Do you agree with Bukhari that The Prophet lost his mind?
Or Do you reject Bukhari and say Prophet didn’t lose his mind and instead was sexually impotent for 1 Year. You can call it what you want, but it is called ‘rejected’.
MJ: Firstly brother Sulaiman, this debate is over already because your evidence you attempted to use was in fact, as you mentioned, what I mentioned and you agreed upon that so that is then end of debate. The Hadith, as Qadhi ‘Iyadh, says is understood as being he ﷺ with his eyes saw it as such and not an issue with his intellect. And if you turn around and say so he ﷺ could have said he saw Jibreel but he didn’t. This is impossible because the Qur’an which is mutawattir says he ﷺ is protected by Allah and is truthful in what he ﷺ says and that he ﷺ cannot be affected by magic in relation to revelation or in propagating the message he ﷺ was ordered by Allah to deliver. Here is the statement of Qadhi ‘Iyadh,قَالَ الْقَاضِي عِيَاضٌ وَقَدْ جَاءَتْ رِوَايَاتُ هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ مُبَيِّنَةً أَنَّ السِّحْرَ إِنَّمَا تَسَلَّطَ عَلَى جَسَدِهِ وَظَوَاهِرِ جَوَارِحِهِ لَا عَلَى عَقْلِهِ وَقَلْبِهِ واعتقاده ويكون معنى قوله فى الحديث حتى يظن أنه يأتى أهله ولا يأتيهن وَيُرْوَى يُخَيَّلُ إِلَيْهِ أَيْ يَظْهَرُ لَهُ مِنْ نشاطه ومتقدم عادته القدرة عليهن فاذا دنى مِنْهُنَّ أَخَذَتْهُ أَخْذَةُ السِّحْرِ فَلَمْ يَأْتِهِنَّ وَلَمْ يَتَمَكَّنْ مِنْ ذَلِكَ كَمَا يَعْتَرِي الْمَسْحُورَ وَكُلُّ مَا جَاءَ فِي الرِّوَايَاتِ مِنْ أَنَّهُ يُخَيَّلُ إليه فعل شيء لم يفعله ونحوه فمحمول على التخيل بالبصر لا لخلل تَطَرَّقَ إِلَى الْعَقْلِ وَلَيْسَ فِي ذَلِكَ مَا يدخل لبسا على الرسالة ولا طعنا لِأَهْلِ الضَّلَالَةِ. Imam Nawawi says in his commentary on Muslim, “Know that the Prophet ﷺ is protected by Allah from lying and changing any of the law whilst he is healthy and in the state of illness. He ﷺ is also protected by Allah from not clarifying what he has been ordered to clarify and propagate what Allah has ordered him to deliver. He ﷺ is not protected from illnesses that affect his body ﷺ as long as it is not considered as reducing his level and does not destroy what he has set in the law. The Prophet ﷺ was affected by magic such that he would see that he did something but he actually didn’t. In this state, he ﷺ did not say anything which negates any of the previous rulings which he ﷺ had already set.” As you can see, no part of the Hadith is rejected. Ta’weel (interpretation) has been done because the literal (which is what you are working on now like zaahiris [literalists]) is impossible as it is already set by mutawaatir Qur’an that he ﷺ cannot be affected in his mind. As far as I am concerned and the majority of Ahl us Sunna including Imam Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi, this is clear and confirmed as I have put it to you. The ones that reject this Hadith are the Mu’tazilites and this has been transmitted in several books which have been put on here for everyone to look at and has been refuted in the past and in the same way in the present. For your information brother Sulaiman, I transmitted what the scholars said about the rejecters of this Hadith and they called them heretics because the Mu’tazilites are heretics. If you adopt their opinion in this, then it is a bid’ah [innovation, especially bad innovation]. I did not scold you and say you are a heretic. As this is over now, I hope InshaaAllah this can be a step in understanding and increasing in knowledge and holding to the religion of the inheritors that have sacrificed their lives in transmitting and teaching us correctly so that we do not go astray. All Praise is due to Allah, Exalted is He, and may His Peace and Blessings be upon our Master Muhammad ﷺ, the Beauty and the Most Perfect in creation.
Notice that once again he is saying clearly that Ahmed is a Mutazzile heretic…and then saying ”I didn’t call you a heretic [even though you are]”. Orwell could not in his most fevered dreams write such doublespeak. Notice also that he has, despite decrying the use of the intellect, claimed that despite the text of the hadith saying that the Prophet’s mind was being affected by the magic (”He thought [not saw] that he had had sex with his wives but he hadn’t), MJ has decided that this is impossible and so it was in fact an optical illusion. So Ahmed is a heretic for being a ‘mutazzilite’ rationalist but MJ is ‘Ahlus Sunnah’ for being ultra-rationalist and rejecting the text of the hadith…but then making up that the hadith in fact is referring to an optical illusion. Note that the same issue would apply to Qadi Iyad were he to assert this – which he did not, though he does say that despite the Prophet losing his mind, this is fine since he is ”protected’ in this state from revealing anything about religion or changing anything already revealed about it. But where does it say that in Quran? MJ boldly asserts that the Quran is muttawatir (mass transmitted) without showing the non-existent ayat that says that The Prophet can be affected by magic but nonetheless not ”reveal’ anything in this state. This is not even rationalism but rather sub-par fabrication and storytelling.
SA: I have quite a few proofs ready as you have made quite a lot of contradictory statements – but before I get to them: Did the Prophet (PBUH) lose control of his mind?
The debate has not even started yet as you have not answered a question I have posed directly without creating a huge amount of smoke and mirrors. I asked about “Qeela” being “Seegha Al-Tamreedh” and you didn’t respond till this morning and gave an incorrect definition, but you also didn’t do this until you added a lot of information that was not relevant. So please can you answer the question, a simple yes or no will suffice:
Did the Prophet (PBUH) lose his mind such that he did not know what was happening?
The reason I say this is that the etiquette of discussion is that you address one point at a time. So point one was about “Qeela” being “Seegha al-Tamreedh” – it’s why I politely asked Shaykh Syed Zahid to hold off on his proof. I asked many times and the brother only posted when he decided to add more post points which were about other issues. This is jumping from point to point, creating dust/confusion. As he brought up the issue of the Prophet losing his mind, so I once again ask:
Did the Prophet (PBUH) lose his mind?
A simple answer please.
I will politely refuse your invitation to your home as you made the decision to make this into a public issue by calling me and your teacher a heretic publicly. Let me show why you have been playing the game of avoidance, have been dishonest throughout and now you are trying to run away.
Uh, yes, get on with it: the game as Ahmed describes is of the most unimaginably vulgar variety – pretending that ‘no’ means ‘yes’ under the assumption that the readers are ignorant of Classical Arabic usage of basic terminologies like ”true’ and ‘false” and even the word ‘but’. Once again gentle reader, I remind you that these people are scholars.
There has been a reason why Jamilli [MJ] did not reply to my persistent question of “Qeela” being “Seegha al-Tamreedh”; because he knew it would end the game he was playing, and he wanted to continue to create the deception of making people think that Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi did not reject the position of magic. Here is why:
Why was the question of “Qeela” being “Seegha al-Tamreedh” not answered? “Seegha al-Tamreedh” is a terminology which is used by Scholars to clarify that something is weak. The opposite of “Seegha al-Tamreedh” is “Seeghat al-Jazm”, which is referring to something that is authentic.
Ibn Abideen [this guy is a very big deal in the Hanafi school, especially amongst the hadith oriented Hanafis, the school the Salafi MJ is pretending to follow to confuse readers], states in Minha al-Khaliq, Volume 6, Page 55. “Qeela” is “Seegha al-Tamreedh”
Imam Nawawi, Shafi/Ashari, ‘Majum‘, Volume 1, Page 104. Briefly, he is explaining that when a hadith is weak it is not permissible to use “Seeghat al-Jazm” but instead you have to use “Seegha al-Tamreedh” such as “Yuqolu” (this is the present and future tense of the word “Qeela”, which is the same word in the past tense).
“Seeghat al-Jazm” is used for Sahih and Hasan Hadith.
“Seegha al-Tamreedh” is for any hadith beside these two types!
Ibn Salah, in ‘Muqaddimah ibn Salah‘, Page 287. ‘If you want to narrate a weak hadith then do not use “Seeghat al-Jazm”’
Imam Suyuti, a Shafi/Ashari, in ‘Tadreeb Rawi’, Volume 1, Page 350. Summary
If it is a weak hadith then do not use “Seeghat al-Jazm”
If it is an authentic hadith then do not use “Seegha al-Tamreedh”
For the uninitiated, Sayuti, Nawawi and Ibn Salah are giants of Sunni Islam. Even Salafis would not dare to denounce them openly, which is why Ahmed has, quite strategically deployed them now to prove that MJ is operating on Salafi protocol and being a total modernist by renouncing near on 1200 years of uninterrupted Sunni scholarship for his own novel position which is, yes, you guessed it, ‘no’ means ‘yes’. Ladies be forewarned.
SA: This is in fact a simply long game of people turning ‘Ahle Sunnah’ into a Hashwi-Mujassim [anthropomorphist] religion. If “Qeela” has now become to denote a valid and accepted opinion which contradicts what I have mentioned above, then all of the statements made by ‘Ahle Sunnah‘ to refute misguided sects and positions are now invalid.
When they say ‘Qeela‘ to say God is not a body, it can now be accepted, since they have inverted the clear meaning of the word ‘Qeela‘, which is to reject, NOT accept what comes after it.
What makes it worse is this is done intentionally, because here Jamilli is contradicting himself about its usage:
“Seegah at-Tamreedh is used generally to indicate that this is not the reliable position.”
“However context is important and not always does ‘qeela’ mean it is weak.”
But here he contradicts himself:
“We agree that Abu Mansoor in this text you have bought has rejected that these two chapters were revealed because of that incident and not that he rejects that magic had occurred on the Prophet ﷺ.”
Your statements are contradictory: on the one hand you say in terms of “Qeela“, one needs to look at the context and it does not always mean weakening and on the other hand you ADMIT that Shaykh Abu Mansoor rejects that these two chapters were revealed because of the incident. So is “Qeela” rejecting or not?
Does he actually know what he is talking about? If no, then he is not in a position to debate, if yes then this is takingTaqiyah [hiding one’s true beliefs, especially in religious matters] to the next level.
So “Qeela” is a position that is rejecting, as Jamilli confusingly admitted, it cannot be used for any valid opinion.
This is why this question was not answered. It proves this position was rejected. Now what do I do with this brother who intentionally dodged this question, who intentionally tried to misguide people. who did not respond to a single simple question that asked for a mere definition of “Qeela” being “Seegha al-Tamreedh”, until he added a lot of other irrelevant posts to confuse the people.
It’s very simple: by using it Shaykh Abu Mansoor al-Maturidi as well as other scholars, use it as a way of rejecting something. Be ready, after I have explained this post, later I will show how giants of Ahle Sunnah used ‘Qeela‘ and after this used Mujassimi [anthropomorphist] statements to show they are weak, unless people actually believe that Ahle Sunnah are Mujassims.
Indeed, the reason Salafis want to lie about the usage of the word ‘qeela‘ by Sunni scholars is because it invalidates the position that Salafis are Sunnis, since they wish to adopt many positions, in particular anthropomorphism, invalidated by Sunnis (and Shi’ítes) by using the word ‘qeela‘, meaning that this position is weak and rejected.
Put another way, they want to hide the fact that they are a heretical sub-sect.
SA: I tried to maintain the etiquettes of debate by clarifying each point numbered one at a time. Sadly Jamilli was not honest enough to do this, that’s why each time that he came, he made random point and then ran off. I’m sorry, but this is not how an honourable Islamic discussion takes place. As his deceptive method can confuse easily influenced people, I will display each point and show what Jamilli said and show my response.
He knew his position was weak – that’s why he deployed this method. What do you call someone who does this? Do you think that person is genuine with God? As the truth must be the most important factor in all of this.
At this stage MJ ignominiously runs off.
I am told, after nearly six months of failing to reply or justify his misdirections and misguidance of Muslims, he will release a ‘book’ to clarify these issues (as if they were not clear enough from the forgoing).
Remarkably, his apparent teacher, a crypto-Salafist by the name of ‘Samir An Naas’ extremely unusually agreed to come out of the woodwork and debate the topic in public. However, he being a Muslim scholar of note, one should have been wary to expect such honesty: he quickly came to his senses and realised that if the lies of Muslim scholars are exposed publicly, they are soon detached from many of their followers. True to kind, he too ignominiously shirked away from a debate, in his case all the more embarrassing since he displayed great bravado in offering it in the first place.
The take home message Dear Reader is that Muslims scholars, just like those of other religions, are more than happy to lie to get you to believe their favourite narrations.
The book can be purchased from here:
[i] Muhammad bin Ismaeel bin Ibrahim al-Bukhari, “Sahih al-Bukhari”, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 89
[ii] Shihabuddin Abu’l-Fadl Ahmad ibn Ali ibn Muhammad (Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani al-Shafi), “Fath ul-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari”, Volume 10, p. 237.
[iv] Abdallah ibn Omar al-Baidawi, ‘Anwar al-Tanzil’ [Tafsir al-Baidawi], (Darul Ihya al-Turath al-Arabiy, Beirut, Lebanon, First edition), Volume 3, p. 257.
[v] Al-ʾIsrāʾ (17:47)
[vi] Abu Mansur Muhammad bin Muhammad al-Māturidī al-Samarqandi, “Ta’wilaatu Ahli Sunnah”, (Massasah al-Risalah, Beirut, Lebanon, 2004), Volume 3, page 162, and Volume 5, pages 543, 545
[vii] Abu Bakr Ahmad bin Ali al-Razi al-Jassas, “Ahkam al-Quran”, (Darul Ihya turath al-Arabi, Beirut, Lebanon, 1992), Volume 1, p. 60.
[viii] Muhammad bin Ismaeel bin Ibrahim al-Bukhari, “Sahih al-Bukhari”, (Bait al-Afkar al-Dawliyah, Riyadh, KSA, 1998) Hadith 3175
[ix] Muhammad bin Ismaeel bin Ibrahim al-Bukhari, “Sahih al-Bukhari”, (Bait al-Afkar al-Dawliyah, Riyadh, KSA, 1998) Hadith 5765
[x] Yaqub ibn Shaibah, ‘Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, (Muassasah al-Risalah), Volume 4 p. 275. (Imam Malik critisized his narrations in Iraq)
[xi] Surah Al-ʾIsrāʾ (17:47)
[xii] Surah Al-Furqan (25:8)
[xiii] Surah An-Nahl (16:98-100)
[xiv] Surah Al-Falaq and Surah An-Naas (113 and 114)
[xv] Abu Bakr Ahmad ibn Husayn Ibn Ali Ibn Moussa al-Khosrojerdi al-Bayhaqi, “Dalail al-Nubuwwah”, (Dar al-Kutub al-Ilmiyyah, Beirut Lebanon, first edition, 1988), volume 7 p. 92. (The person performing magic is a child)
Ahmad ibn Shu’ayb ibn Ali ibn Sinan Abu Abd ar-Raḥman al-Nasai, “As-Sunan as-Sughra (Sunan an-Nasai), (Maktabat al-Ma’arif, Riad, KSA, First edition, 1996, Hadith 6080, p. 629.